Question about the Mormon Jesus

The bible says we MUST be born of the WATER and OF THE SPIRIT. John 3:5
The passage does say you must be born of water of and of the spirit. But no where does it mention baptism. You only assume that water is equated with baptism. That is a wrong assumption. The verse does not mention baptism at all. Not in the entire chapter of John three is baptism mentioned. It is only your own preconceived ideas that you unjustly insert baptism into this verse where there is no mention of baptism. Why do you do this? What does it mean to be born again. This verse gives two agents whereby a man is born again, and only two: water and the spirit. This is what Jesus said. We cannot add to God's Word. There are only these two agents whereby a man is born again. We surely can agree that a man is born again by the Holy Spirit. That is what the word "spirit" refers to. Then what does the word "water" refer to. Only Scripture can tell us.

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
--Water, like the Word of God, is a cleansing agent. Jesus uses the picture of water as something that cleanses. But it is not the water that cleanses. It is the Word of God. It is clear here in John 15:3. You are clean through the Word.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
--The word "begat" makes reference to being born again. We are born again with the word of truth. That is what James is saying here. It is through the Word of God that one is born again. Remember that there are only two agents by which a man is born again.

1Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible
seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--It very plainly says here that we are born again by the Word of God. There are only two agents by which a man is born again: the Word of God, and the Spirit of God. Thus "water" must refer to the Word of God. Man is not born of God through baptism. Baptism has nothing to do with being born again. Scripture plainly teaches that one must be born again through the Word of God. You can accept the plain teaching of Scripture or reject it.
DHK

 

Now THAT makes sense, DHK.

 

Singer:

There can be no baptism in the heart for those who refuse water baptism - BESIDES, Jesus said you must be "born of WATER and the SPIRIT" - He didn't say you must be "born of the heart"!

(Col 2:12 KJV) "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." -- There is a spiritual resurrection which the unbaptized cannot have!

 

All the different opinions/doctrines/translations make Christianity a
"Pick and Choose" Religion.

I think I'll stick with the explanation that DHK gave as for what water means.
I'll reject DHK's thoughts that the New Testament is "that which is perfect" and
reject his opinion that gifts have ceased and I'll agree with MEE that the
baptism of the H.S. evidenced by speaking in tongues is for today.

...........and I'll reject Catholicism as the sole authority on earth to administer
the gospel , reject Mary as a perpetual virgin and reject the body of Christ
as being a local church.

I'm saved but not baptized and if baptism only means "renewed by the Word",
then I meet all qualificiations there.

Guess if there's something that I need to do yet inorder to meet the specs,
then it's not a salvation by grace through faith.

Beings I think it is, I'll just remain unchurched, unbaptized with no apparent
loss and continue to spread the simple gospel that our Lord is risen from the
dead and makes salvation available to ''whosoever believes in Me".

 

DHK's explanation that the "water" of John 3:5 is "the word" is rediculous! You could just as easily say that the Spirit in John 3:5 is "the word" because Jesus said "the words I speak are Spirit" in John 6. In fact, why not say that both the water and the Spirit are "the word" in John 3:5? In otherwords, DHK's explanation and all it's counterparts are odious heresies.

 

The heresy is that somehow H2O has some magical superstitious power to wash away ones sins. That is indeed a heresy. Even the Old Testament prophets knew better than that:

Jer.2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.

You can dunk yourself all you want in water Sola. You can even scrub yourself with soap and lye--the strongest soaps known to mankind. But I have news for you: soap and water won't wash away your sins. Only the blood of Jesus Christ can do that. To believe that water can wash away sin is a heresy!

Here is the plain truth of the Bible:

Eph.2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation is all of grace. Christ did it all. There is nothing that you can do--absolutely nothing. He paid the penalty for your sin--completely. He didn't need your help at all. You had no part in earning anyone's salvation, including your own. Baptism does not earn one's salvation. If you believe that it is necessary to salvation you spit in the face of God, and claim that the sacrifice of Christ and His blood was not sufficient to take away your sins. You are saying that you had to help Christ along by being baptized. No, salvation is a work of grace. It is all of God's grace.

It is to be accepted by faith, and faith alone--not of works. Baptism is a work. It is something that you do. You receive baptism of a man. A man does the baptism, and a man receives the baptism. It is not God that does the baptizing. It is man, and a work of man. Even if it is done in obedience to Christ (as prayer or evangelization) it is still a work of man. It is a gift of God (Rom.6:23) to be received by faith, just as any other gift would be received. You don't work for a gift. To accept salvation by working for it through baptism is a horrible heresy.
DHK

 

Glorious:
The Bible says the eunoch rejoiced after he was baptized,not before. Acts 8:38-40. If baptism was an outward token of a past burial then the euncoh was not taught properly by Philip. According to you he was saved before his baptism. However, the text indicates his rejoicing was AFTER his baptism, not before. WHY?
You simply have never heard the truth!! Peter said baptism doth also now save us. I Pet. 3:21. The Eunoch understood it. He obeyed it. AFTER he was baptized, he rejoiced, not before. If he were saved prior to baptism, he would have been rejoicing before his baptism. He would have already been IN the Lord. Phil 4:4.

 

Frank,
When does emotion (i.e. rejoicing) or the lack of it determine ones salvation? Salvation is determined by faith--believing on the name of the Lord. Then you shall be saved. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that if you shall rejoice then you shall be saved.
DHK

 

Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. "For so the Lord has commanded us, 'I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES, THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.'" When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

 

Dhk:
The Bible says in Phil. 4:4 rejoice IN the Lord alway; and again I say rejoice. How does one get IN Christ? In Gal. 3:26,27, the Bible says, for we are all the children of God by faith ( WHERE?) IN Christ Jesus for as many of you as have been baptized INTO Christ have put on Christ. According to Paul I am to rejoice always IN the Lord, which take place when I am baptized by faith INTO him. Furthermore, the point of Acts 8 was the denominational saying "outward sign of an inward grace" holds no water based on the text in question. As the prophet Jeremiah would say it is a cistern a broken cistern that holds no water.
Rational thought based on the evidnece dictates that if the Eunoch would have been saved at the point of his belief he would have been happy about his remission of sins at that point. However, he was not joyful UNTIL he was baptized INTO CHRIST where all spiritual blessings are. Eph. 1:3, Acts 8:34-40, Gal. 3:26,27.

 

Alcott:
the passage you post was written in the aorist voice in the past tense. This passage is referring to a one time indivdual action happening in the past. Therefore, one must find the one time previous event to which this passage is refering in order to interpret it properly. Your inference that one must make only mental ascent to the truth saves is not supported by the original language of this text, nor the context of the passage. The rejoicing came from the knowledge of the previous and present salvation, not the lack thereof.

 

That is all it is "thought" ideas. Salvation is based on the sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ, not on emotions. Emotions are totally irrelevant to salvation. Whether one rejoices before salvation (and they do) or after salvation is irrelevant to their salvation. Salvation is a gift of God accepted by faith alone, an act of faith once done in the history of the believer nothing to with emotions or baptism. To say otherwise is heresy. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. It is that simple.
DHK

 

DHK:
I would not be so hasty to judge. God made man's mind. He expects us to use it. Jesus is the eternal LOGOS. We get our word LOGIC. Salvation is not given blindly to unrepentant or disobedient. One must know the will of God to be saved. Mat. 7:21-14, Eph. 5:17. This requires rationality. You criticize that which you must use ( rational thought) to know salvation is In Christ.

 

Wrong again Frank. It is God's will that all men should be saved, but not all will be saved.

2Pet.3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

One must know Christ to be saved, not an understanding of God's will.
DHK

 

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. It is that simple."


(Singer)
Amen Brother DHK.....That's where my bar preaching starts and stops.

If we're going to have to understand three languages, tenses of
words, application of verbs, historical facts dating back through
all time, the disputes that have risen over religion and the analysis
of them all, the actual thoughts and meanings of all the bible's
writers and to whom they said it to, be able to digest the claims of
the elitist sects who take pride in annointing themselves with an
imaginary papal appointment.............and....and...and...and

Hell fire...it would be easier to convince someone of the
authenticity of the Easter Bunny than to succeed in guiding them to
heaven under those pretenses.

Ya...why not a simple gospel .....like

Believe on the Lord Jesus
Christ and thou shalt be saved. It is that simple.

 

DHK:
Knowledge is, well, knowledge. It does not matter whether it is of God or Christ. Knowledge requires rational cognition to know anything. That is simply the way mankinid is made. We possess the ability to think. This seperates us from the rest of the animal kingdom.
On the one hand you criticize emotion as a result of rational thought, then, on the other you criticize the use of rational thought. I would like to know how a human knows anything without using his ability to think. Who made man's mind? What is it's purpose?
This is so much just drifting in the wind.

 

Emotion doesn't have to be the result of any rational thought at all. There are plenty of people who have been known to burst out laughing for no apparent reason at all. Many people are a ball of emotions and totally irrational with their emotions. If your salvation is based on your emotions I feel sorry for you. Emotion are not necessarily based on rational thought. I don't have to spend time logically thinking out a process of how I am going to laugh or cry before I do it.

So much for emotions. What a man does have to know is the gospel: an understanding of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1Cor.15:1-4), by the which he is saved. If he believes on that message, that is believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, he is saved. That involves rational thought, not emotion.
DHK

 

Dhk:
I was not arguing for one to use emotions as a guide to salvation. I leave that to those who are direct operationist of the Holy Spirit, such as your Calvinist and Pentecostals. The point made from Acts 8 was that rational thought governed the emotions of the eunoch. This action was approved by God. It was recorded just as it should be. He rejoiced IN the Lord, not out of the Lord. Furthermore, the Bible teaches the Eunoch rejoiced after he was IN Christ through baptism for the remission of sins. You can be an amateur psychologist if you want, I prefer the simplicity of the text.
No person with the ability to know truth can be saved without it. It requires knowledge to be saved. The Bible says in 1 Timothy 2:3  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Men are saved only when they know and obey the truth. Jesus said ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. John 8:32. Repentance or changing ones life requires knowledge. The Bible says II Tim. 2 and verse 25,  In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26  And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. One cannot not escape the devil without knowing truth.
Men are begotten by acting upon their knowledge in obeying the truth.Romans 6:17, James 1:18. The Bible says in I Pet. 1:22,22  Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Therefore, it is essential to know the truth and obey it to be saved. This requires a mental examination of evidence and rational response to it. This is exactly what happened when the first Christians were born. The Bible says in Acts 2: 36-41,  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37  ¶Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Those on Pentecost heard and examined the evidence( rational thought). They were moved or pricked in their minds ( the seat of BOTH thought and emotion). They made a rational decision to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins in accordance with the evidence examined. They gladly received his word( knowledge that produced faith, Hebrews 11:1,6, Romans 10: 17) were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

 

Dhk:
I was not arguing for one to use emotions as a guide to salvation. I leave that to those who are direct operationist of the Holy Spirit, such as your Calvinist and Pentecostals. The point made from Acts 8 was that rational thought governed the emotions of the eunoch. This action was approved by God. It was recorded just as it should be. He rejoiced IN the Lord, not out of the Lord. Furthermore, the Bible teaches the Eunoch rejoiced after he was IN Christ through baptism for the remission of sins. You can be an amateur psychologist if you want, I prefer the simplicity of the text.
No person with the ability to know truth can be saved without it. It requires knowledge to be saved. The Bible says in 1 Timothy 2:3  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Men are saved only when they know and obey the truth. Jesus said ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. John 8:32. Repentance or changing ones life requires knowledge. The Bible says II Tim. 2 and verse 25,  In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26  And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. One cannot not escape the devil without knowing truth.
Men are begotten by acting upon their knowledge in obeying the truth.Romans 6:17, James 1:18. The Bible says in I Pet. 1:22,22  Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Therefore, it is essential to know the truth and obey it to be saved. This requires a mental examination of evidence and rational response to it. This is exactly what happened when the first Christians were born. The Bible says in Acts 2: 36-41,  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37  ¶Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Those on Pentecost heard and examined the evidence( rational thought). They were moved or pricked in their minds ( the seat of BOTH thought and emotion). They made a rational decision to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins in accordance with the evidence examined. They gladly received his word( knowledge that produced faith, Hebrews 11:1,6, Romans 10: 17) were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

 

But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation (II Peter 1:20)