1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Question on 2 Corinthians 13:5

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by lanman87, Jan 8, 2021.

  1. lanman87

    lanman87 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    10
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How exactly do we "test ourselves" to see if we are in the faith?

    Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test? NIV

    Examine yourselves to see if your faith is genuine. Test yourselves. Surely you know that Jesus Christ is among you; if not, you have failed the test of genuine faith. NLT

    Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! ESV

    Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? KJV
     
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    5,655
    Likes Received:
    486
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Romans 8:9, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

    Romans 8:15-16, "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: . . ."

    1 John 5:10, ". . . He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: . . ."

    1 John 5:12, "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

    Read context of 1 John 5:9-13.

    John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

    2 Peter 1:4-10, ". . . give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: . . ." And context.

    Titus 1:2, "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; . . ."

    By knowing Christ we actually know God Himself. John 14:6.

    2 John 1:9, "He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."

    Please read my signature below too. 1 John 5:1.
     
    #2 37818, Jan 8, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2021
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    17,010
    Likes Received:
    472
    Faith:
    Baptist
    We consider our core beliefs and commitments. Do we love Jesus with all our heart, or like the third soil of Matthew 13, do we share our heart with love for worldly treasures? Do we stand firm with Jesus when the going gets tough. Or like the second soil, do we run for cover? Do we depend on God or on our own understanding? Do we pray and meditate over God's word seeking to understand and apply it to our lives? Or are we lip service Christians, but actually seek the honor of people? Do we try to build up our siblings in Christ or do we ridicule other believers to make ourselves look good, like the Pharisee's view of the Publican, Luke 18:11-14
     
    #3 Van, Jan 8, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2021
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    47,729
    Likes Received:
    2,439
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Great question! Do we have love for God, for the fellow saints, for His word, and do know when we have sinned or are still sinning that its wrong by the conviction of the Holy Spirit?
     
  5. lanman87

    lanman87 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    10
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Do ya'll (yes I'm from Alabama) think that repentance from sin/seeking righteousness/obedience and works are part of the test?

    By this I mean, if I can habitually commit a sin and neither fall under conviction that leads to repentance or discipline does that mean I've failed the test?

    Consider the following passages (all in the ESV)

    1 John 2:4-5 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:

    1 John 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him

    1 John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

    Hebrews 12:8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

    James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works

    Are obedience, repentance, discipline and works along with love (1 John 1:8) the ways in which we test our faith to see if it is a "living faith" or a "dead faith"(which does not save-James 2:14)?

    Not that any of those things "save us" but lack of those things can show us that we are "not in the faith"?
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    47,729
    Likes Received:
    2,439
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Think that someone who is really saved by grace of God has now a new nature and the abiding Holy Spirit, so if no conviction, remorse, repenting , confessing, at all, if business as usual, would really question that!
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    5,655
    Likes Received:
    486
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Which commandments?
    The Law, Galatians 2:21, " I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

    Or the two new, 1 John 3:23, "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."
    See John 12:50 (1 John 5;12) and John 13:34-35.
     
  8. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    8,835
    Likes Received:
    1,431
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Notice what the OP says... Examine yourselves!... It is not my job to examine you as some of the brethren have been doing on here since I joined the BB many years ago... Its not my job to be fruit inspector, I inspect my own fruit and if I follow the Lord, I am fruitful, if I don't I'm not and all of that applies to me, who is born of God... Do I always succeed?... No sometimes I blow it and have to regroup, fall flat on my face, confess, repent and as the Lord picks me up I start again, hoping to do better next time... The next time you mess up look at the saints in the Bible, were they perfect?... No they were just like us as they also examined themselves daily... Trying to serve God daily and avoiding slipping into where they once were... You want to examine someone?... Look in the Mirror!... Enough said!... Brother Glen:)
     
  9. lanman87

    lanman87 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    10
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I made it clear that righteousness doesn't come by the law. We aren't saved by anything but faith through grace. Hopefully that is something that all Baptist can agree upon.

    My questions is not about being made righteous by anything other than faith in Christ.

    My question is about how we know our faith is real? How do we know it is a saving faith?

    According to 1 John 3:6 "No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him"

    Romans 3:20 says For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

    Romans Chapter 2 is about how the Jews had the law and the gentiles had the "natural Law"(Romans 2:14). Both give us the "knowledge of sin".

    Keeping neither the Mosaic Law or the Natural Law "makes us right with God". However, we can't ignore the fact the Word tells us that if we "keep on sinning" we haven't seen Him or know Him.

    And yes, we all keep on sinning. It is clear (at least to me) that this is referring to obstinate refusal to admit our sins, confess of our sins, and repent of our sins. John makes it clear in 1 John 1:8-10 that 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    Our faith fails the test if we refuse to admit our sins and/or we keep on sinning. 1 John 3:9 goes as far as to say it is impossible to keep practicing sin and be "born of God" No one born of God makes a practice of sinning for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

    It would seem to me that if someone isn't struggling against sin, if they keep on practicing sin without either falling under conviction that leads to repentance or discipline then that shows the test of 2 Corinthians 13:5 has failed. He hasn't been born of God, he has never seen Him or knows Him.

    I'm not suggestive we start judging other people. But if someone wants to know "Do I pass the test?" it is very clear that "do you keep on sinning" is one of the questions to ask.
     
  10. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    4,019
    Likes Received:
    948
    Faith:
    Baptist
    " Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" ( 2 Corinthians 13:5 )

    Here's the test:

    Read the book of 1 John, and conclude it with 1 John 5:13...
    The things that are written there are how we know we are saved.;)

    For example:

    Do we love our brothers and sisters in Christ...
    Do we keep God's commandments...
    Do we confess Christ before men....
    Do we test the spirits whether they are of God....
    Do we believe God's word....
    Do we confess that Jesus is the Son of God....
    Do we believe that Jesus is the Christ ( Messiah )....
     
    #10 Dave G, Jan 8, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2021
  11. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    4,019
    Likes Received:
    948
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I would say so, yes.
    True believers in Christ are characterized by repentance.

    Acknowledgement of sin and having a true desire to depart from it and to obey God, even though we stumble, is a mark of someone who has been born again.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. lanman87

    lanman87 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    10
    Faith:
    Baptist
    When I realized that 1 John was about evidence of genuine faith it totally changed my understanding of 2 Cor 13:5
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    5,655
    Likes Received:
    486
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How do you understand 1 John 5:1? "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . ."
     
  14. lanman87

    lanman87 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    10
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That whoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.

    But believing isn't just agreeing that Jesus is the Christ. Even the Demons believe that there is a God. If that is the kind of belief we have all we qualify for is to be a demon. (I heard a preacher say that one time).

    The historical teaching of being saved by faith alone is that we are 100% saved by faith through grace and we do not merit salvation by anything we do "of ourselves".

    However, the historical teaching of being saved by faith alone is that being saved changes us. Being saved is such a life changing event, a heart changing event, a "new creation" event (2 Corinthians 5:17) that is changes everything about us. It changes what we love, it changes our desires, it changes our purpose.

    And if we have truly been saved and are "new creations" then those changes will become evident not only internally in our "heart" but externally in how we live our life. Because we still have a sin nature we will struggle against sin but by God's grace our goal (because we have been saved) is what Paul writes about in Romans 6. We become slaves of righteousness

    12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

    15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  15. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    8,835
    Likes Received:
    1,431
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Saved to serve, not saved to sin... We all walk with feet of clay and who did you serve at the end of the day?... We sin because it is the condition, along with the tempter, that causes the action, if it wasn't, there would be any warfare... Read about in Romans 7 but I know scripture to be true and the throne of grace and forgiveness is always available!... Brother Glen:)

    1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

    2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

    Btw... Ianman87 looks like you've been here before, welcome back
     
  16. lanman87

    lanman87 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    10
    Faith:
    Baptist
    After thinking about this topic I decided I needed to make something more clear.

    I believe external actions are a test of true faith but they aren't the only test. A person can be "religious" and do "religious things" and not pass the test. We aren't saved by our actions. We are saved by faith.

    What we do need to do, in my opinion, is be careful of the extremes when we test our faith.

    One extreme is that any profession of faith, any experience of proclaiming faith, is real and genuine. Just because we say we believe something doesn't mean we actually believe it. I can believe I love my wife but if I treat her like garbage then I don't really love my wife.

    The other extreme is legalism where we test our faith solely on our actions. The status of our faith rest on how many check boxes we can tick off. Do I go to church every week, Check. Do I give my tithe, Check. Did I read my Bible everyday, Check.

    We tell ourselves "Well, I must be a true Christian because I'm doing all those things."

    I believe a true "Test" is to both look internally at our "Heart" and externally at our "actions".

    If I say I believe in my heart then I need to look at my actions to see if they line up with my stated belief. If I"m not living by the faith I proclaim to believe then I don't really have faith.

    I also need to look at my actions and determine if I'm doing those things out of some obligation in order to be right with God or religious moral teaching or cultural reasons (to make my wife happy, or so people will not think I'm a jerk) then I don't really have faith. I have religion.

    Anyway, I just wanted to clarify those thoughts. I didn't want anyone to think that "works" are the only way to "test our faith".
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    5,655
    Likes Received:
    486
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Understood to mean, grace through faith.
     
  18. lanman87

    lanman87 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    10
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes.
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    5,655
    Likes Received:
    486
    Faith:
    Baptist
  20. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    4,019
    Likes Received:
    948
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here I see you saying that our faith, as believers, is what God looks upon in order to decide who to save.
    Would you clarify?
    I agree.
    But the Bible says that not everyone who thinks that God has saved them, really is.
    I call that "manufactured faith", where a person does things outwardly in order to be seen of men, but inside they are as dead towards God and His ways as a person who loves this world outwardly and pays no attention to the Lord and His commands.
    I also see that people who do this are overlooking something they cannot avoid...

    God looks upon the heart and sees right through our actions and down to our motivations;
    Every thought and intent of the heart ( Proverbs 16:2, Jeremiah 17:10, Psalms 44:21, 1 Samuel 16:7 ).
     
    #20 Dave G, Jan 9, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
Loading...