QUESTIONS FOR CALVINISTS TO PONDER.

I ask these questions as points of debate. Don't read anymore into it. I am willing to learn but I have yet heard anyone deal with these issues fully and honestly. In fact, they was Calvinists respond to these arguments reminds me of how Arminians would respond to me when I was a Calvinist making arguments from that perspective. I guess I ask these things with some expectation that someone might actually have an answer for them.

I realize this but I'm afraid most Calvinists don't. Many seem to point to Paul conversion, or the like, as some kind of proof to the way in which God calls us to salvation. You say they are two seperate callings. One call to salvation and the other to apostleship, but the recording of such callings are not really seperated, are they? Therefore, isn't it possible that Calvinists take the call to apostleship, which is effectual, and apply it to the way in which God calls all men to salvation, which may not be effectual. See my point?

I not sure what you mean. Greater in that their punishment is going to be worse than burning in hell for eternity? I'm trying to see where you are coming from.

I asked: "Why would God hardened men who are born unable to see, hear, understand and believe the things of God already?"

Yes, I understand that part and agree with it. I'm asking why would God need to hardened a man who was born that way already? In other words, why make a blind man blind?

I asked: "Why does the Jesus speak of hiding the gospel in parables if indeed those he is hiding it from were born Total Depraved rendering them unable to believe it anyway?"

Again, I agree with this. I'm acknowledging this. Jesus has certain people while he is here on earth that he does not want to believe yet. Those people are the hardened Jews, not the non-elect, as Calvinists interpret it. The hardened Jew can still be saved as Paul clearly says in Romans 11.

Meaning? God selected certain people to be able to hear and be saved to the neglect of all others. NO.

Meaning God has temporarily hardened the Jews so that they can't hear in order to accomplish His purpose through them, ie crucifixion, ingrafting of gentiles. Those without ears are those who have been hardened for a time, not Totally depraved reprobates that God hasn't chosen for salvation. How do I know? Paul says they could be provoked by jealousy and be saved.

I asked: "What would envy or jealousy have to do with bringing someone to saving grace if indeed man’s will is not a factor? Jealousy is a motivator of man’s will. Why would it be needed if men our brought to salvation by an effectual calling?"

Then you're not reading Romans 11.

I asked: "Isn't it possible that when Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, speaks of his audiences being chosen that it's in reference to the major debate of that day which dealt with God's choice to ingraft the Gentile nation by allowing them entrance into His covenant, a place traditionally thought to be reserved only for Jews?"

Why can hardening and jealousy be interpreted on the corporate level but not election? What passages of scripture lead you to apply election individually but jealousy and hardening corporately?

I know Jews came to believe, but God did not entrust himself to them because it wasn't there time (Jn 2). They were to be used by God to bring redemption. After that purpose was accomplished many of them came to believe, but during the time of Jesus' public ministry and death, the Jews as a group were being hardened.

 

Depends upon what you consider to be the principle of the firstborn.

 

Newton,

I appreciate you posting the Canon of Dort, I'm fimiliar with these articles which are noticable void of biblical support and thus void of answers to the questions I have posed on this post. This is one of the reasons I'm not a Calvinist anymore. Calvinism can't deal with these issues that seem to explain the traditional Calvinist proof texts within the context of the entire bible rather than just the portions that support TULIP.

 

What do you mean by "worse than they were?" How is someone worse than what Total Depraved is? I KNOW that TD doesn't mean as sinful as one can be. That is NOT what I'm refering to. I refering to man's nature in regard to their ability or lack thereof to believe, which relates to hardening. How do you make a person who was born Total unable more unable?

I agree.

Well stated.

Amen.

Its good to see that were beginning to think alike.

 

I'm sorry you feel that way. I went back and read my previous posts that were in response to your arguments to see if I had dealt "openly" and "honestly" with what you stated. I listed line by line each of your arguments and responded to each one, which, btw, you have not extended the curtiousy of doing for me. (I'm not saying you need to do that, I'm only pointing out that I'm going further than you are willing to go by answering each and every one of your arguments.) I'm being as objective as I know how to be. If you could specifically tell me what I'm not being open or honest about I would be more than happy to revisit that with you.

You are right. I should not have written "absent of ANY Scriptural support." That was incorrect.

What I honestly meant when I wrote that was that it didn't have any scriptural support to address any of the issues I have raised in this thread and I noticed that MOST of the Articles listed were mere opinions or speculations without biblical support. Of the 59 articles listed only 9 of them refer to a biblical passage for support and 7 of those are in the first section that you copied and pasted of which don't even contain points of disagreement with the Arminian views. When I made my statement I was reading the last two sections of articles that were dealing most closely with our points of contention and they were void of scriptural support.

Nevertheless, I was wrong to include the word "any" I should have said "little." Or I should have said "it didn't show any scriptural support for our points of contention." Does that better state my position?

 

Could you please list the other times. I want to be sure to make it right if what you state here is true. Thanks