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Questions for Calvinists

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Moriah, Jan 1, 2012.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Still waiting for your response to the three quotes:sleep::sleep::sleep:
    Looks like i might be waiting for awhile:laugh:
     
  2. Christos doulos

    Christos doulos New Member

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    My friend. You show case one verse out of the bible and make the claim that Calvinists go against the teaching of scripture?

    How about the answer lies between both interpretations?
     
  3. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    On post #202 on this thread I said the following to you:

    You offered many quotes and I do not have the time to deal with them all. Give me what you think is your best evidence from the Bible that supports your idea and I will respond to it.

    I am still waiting.
     
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes...and as post 205 follows 202...that might be where you want to look and not be waiting:laugh:
    I can expand on it,,,or the quotes can if you do not understand:thumbs:
    I still want you to address the three quotes....take one at a time...take a paragraph at a time...back up what you said..or stand corrected!
     
  5. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    I answered some of what you said at post #218. Perhaps you overlooked what I said in response to what you said here:
    To that I said:

    You have the receiving of the Spirit taking place before faith. And you still have not answered Paul's words where he makes it plain that the Spirit is received as a result of faith:

    "I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?" (Gal.3:2).
    I did indeed address some of what you said. Now it is time to respond that what I said in regard to your remarks.
     
  6. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    But the answer does not lie between. In every case the scriptures show faith preceding receiving the Holy Spirit.

    John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    Read the book of John and you will find many persons believed on Jesus before they received the Spirit. The disciples (except Judas) believed on Jesus, but did not receive the Spirit until John 20:22

    John 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

    John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

    The disciples believed on Jesus for 3 years before they received the Spirit, in fact, everyone shown in the four gospels who believed in Jesus did not receive the Spirit until Jesus was raised from the dead.

    Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
    2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

    Paul's question here does not make sense unless a person receives the Holy Spirit after they believe.

    Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    Paul's question here demands the answer that these persons received the Spirit after they believed.

    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    This verse directly says these persons received the Spirit after they believed.

    I have presented four more verses to support my view than you can. There is not one single verse in all the Bible that says a person receives the Spirit before they believe. I challenge you to show any verse that says this, you cannot.

    So, the answer is not inbetween, the Calvinist view is outright error and not supported by a single verse of scripture. It is a man-made doctrine.
     
    #226 Winman, Jan 10, 2012
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  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Paul is speaking of works/grace.....this is not a timeline of regeneration.


    you have not answered anything I posted....?I know you cannot...you side step it.....
     
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I dont get it Icono. I had the sin of Unbelief....again the "SIN OF UNBELIEF" to contend with & I never knew I did not believe.....but as the divines say (George Whitefield "Sermon/ Method of Grace")

    But then, before you can speak peace to your souls, there is one particular sin you must be greatly troubled for, and yet I fear there are few of you think what it is; it is the reigning, the damning sin of the Christian world, and yet the Christian world seldom or never think of it. 12
    And pray what is that? It is what most of you think you are not guilty of—and that is, the sin of unbelief. Before you can speak peace to your heart, you must be troubled for the unbelief of your heart. But can it be supposed that any of you are unbelievers here in this churchyard, that are born in Scotland, in a reformed country, that go to church every Sabbath? Can any of you that receive the sacrament once a year—oh, that it were administered oftener!—can it be supposed that you who had tokens for the sacrament, that you who keep up family prayer, that any of you do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ? 13
    My friends, we mistake a historical faith for a true faith, wrought in the heart by the Spirit of God. You fancy you believe because you believe there is such a book as we call the Bible, because you go to church—all this you may do and have no true faith in Christ; merely to believe there was such a person as Christ, merely to believe there is a book called the Bible, will do you no good, more than to believe there was such a man as Cæsar or Alexander the Great. The Bible is a sacred depository. What thanks have we to give to God for these lively oracles! But yet we may have these and not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. 14
    My dear friends, there must be a principle wrought in the heart by the Spirit of the living God. Did I ask you how long it is since you believed in Jesus Christ, I suppose most of you would tell me you believed in Jesus Christ as long as ever you remember—you never did misbelieve. Then, you could not give me a better proof that you never yet believed in Jesus Christ, unless you were sanctified early, as from the womb; for they that otherwise believe in Christ know there was a time when they did not believe in Jesus Christ. 15
    You say you love God with all your heart, soul, and strength. If I were to ask you how long it is since you loved God, you would say, As long as you can remember; you never hated God, you know no time when there was enmity in your heart against God. Then, unless you were sanctified very early, you never loved God in your life. 16
    My dear friends, I am more particular in this, because it is a most deceitful delusion, whereby so many people are carried away, that they believe already. Therefore it is remarked of Mr. Marshall, giving account of his experiences, that he had been working for life, and he had ranged all his sins under the ten commandments, and then, coming to a minister, asked him the reason why he could not get peace. The minister looked to his catalog. Away, says he, I do not find one word of the sin of unbelief in all your catalog. It is the peculiar work of the Spirit of God to convince us of our unbelief—that we have got no faith. Says Jesus Christ, “I will send the Comforter; and when He is come, He will reprove the world” of the sin of unbelief; “of sin,” says Christ, “because they believe not on Me.” 17
    I am now talking of the invisible realities of another world, of inward religion, of the work of God upon a poor sinner’s heart. I am now talking of a matter of great importance, my dear hearers; you are all concerned in it, your souls are concerned in it, your eternal salvation is concerned in it. You may be all at peace, but perhaps the devil has lulled you asleep into a carnal lethargy and security, and will endeavor to keep you there till he get you to hell, and there you will be awakened; but it will be dreadful to be awakened and find yourselves so fearfully mistaken, when the great gulf is fixed, when you will be calling to all eternity for a drop of water to cool your tongue and shall not obtain it.
     
  9. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    George Whitefield is not the word of God. Sure, you can find any number of Calvinist scholars who will agree with you. So what? It is the word of God that matters, and the scriptures ALWAYS show faith preceding receiving the Holy Spirit and LIFE (regeneration). You have been shown many scriptures that clearly show this, you in return quote your Calvinist authors, but NEVER the word of God, because there is not one single verse in all of scripture to support your view. You cannot show it and you know it.
     
    #229 Winman, Jan 10, 2012
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  10. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Here is what Spurgeon said concerning Galatians 3:2;

    Spurgeon got it right.
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    But...... caution is in order Winman. No one can have a Biblical notion of faith divorced from works. There was no such divorcement implied in Gal 3:2. The author was speaking directly to the 'grounds' of salvation, and was not in this passage addressing the conditions thereof. James on the other hand was speaking to the conditions of, and not directly the grounds of salvation. "Faith without works is dead being alone."

    I have tried to show forth this truth in the illustration of a prisoner in relationship to a pardon. Sorry, but I would find Spurgeon as one that did not have a clear grasp on the distinction between the grounds and conditions of salvation.
     
  12. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Well, I wouldn't agree with you here. Works do not prove faith, but works are an evidence of faith. That is a very fine distinction.

    In other words, if you are working to prove to yourself you have faith, then you are not really relying on Jesus to save you. If however you are absolutely depending on Jesus and know you are saved, you will work out of thankfulness and gratitude. There is a difference.

    If a person believes they must work to be saved, they must also believe if they quit working that they are lost.

    Believeing on Jesus is completely trusting your soul into his hands. It is letting go, not hanging on. I have given the analogy of being in a tall building on fire. You are on the 6th floor, no way you can get down safely. Firemen below shout to you, they have a big net. They tell you to jump and they will catch you. This is what trusting Jesus is like. It is completely letting go and jumping, and depending 100% on Jesus alone to save you. If you think you have to climb down the building, then you are not trusting the firemen at all, you are trusting in yourself alone.

    Jesus showed this on the cross. He was not killed, he willingly gave up the spirit and completely depended on his Father to raise him from the dead. There is no work there.

    Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

    Trusting is completely letting go. It is like jumping out of an airplane and depending on the parachute to get you down safely.

    Trusting is like going to the doctor for brain surgery. You allow the doctor to put you asleep and open up your body. You are completely in his hands, if he makes a mistake you are a goner.

    Now, you would not allow a doctor to put you asleep and operate on your brain unless you believed he could successfully help you. You would not jump out of a plane if you were not fairly certain the parachute will operate properly. So, faith will result in works, but works themselves will not get you into heaven. We should never depend on our works, we will fail. Just cast yourself on Jesus and depend on him alone.

    When Jesus promised never to cast out those that come to him, that is a one time promise. He didn't say you had to keep coming over and over. No, he said that whoever comes to him shall in no wise be cast out. You only have to come once.

    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    This verse cannot be true if you think you must continuously work to get salvation. No, this is a once-for-all promise, if you come to Jesus in your heart, he saves you right then and there and you are saved forever.

    And scripture supports this. Jesus told people they were "saved".

    Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

    Jesus could not tell this woman she was saved if she must persevere. Salvation is a once-for-all transaction. If you come to Jesus he will save you and give you the Holy Spirit. It will now be your nature to obey God.
     
  13. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    So are you saying that the receiving of the Spirit of which Paul speaks is one which follows another receiving of the Spirit that happens at regeneration?

    So a person is regenerated when he receives the Spirit and then when he believes he receives the Spirit again?

    Is that what you believe?

    Give me any verse which you like that you think proves that in a logical sense regeneration precdes faith and I will address it. But please do not string out a long series of verses where your point is almost impossible to understand.

    Just make it short and sweet like I have done.
     
  14. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    I have found in the Bible that there is just one scripture, if all would believe and obey, could stop false religions and false doctrine from even beginning. Thank You God, Father in heaven, for Your Powerful Word, Jesus Christ. Amen.

    Here is one scripture that disqualifies all religions that say there is more than one way to the Father.

    John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    Unitarians say there are more ways to the Father than Jesus is.

    Here is one scripture that should stop Preterists from believing that Jesus already came and will not come again.

    Romans 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

    We still die physically. We still have to have an immortal body given to us, the redemption of our bodies. The dying of God’s creation has not yet stopped, but will stop when God gives us immortal bodies and makes the Earth anew.


    Here is one scripture that should stop a person from continuing to contemplate believing the Mormon religion. In addition, this one scripture should stop someone from thinking of joining the Islamic/Muslim religion.

    Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

    Joseph Smith says the angel Moroni gave him the other testament of Jesus Christ. Do not let anyone, nor the Mormon missionaries, try to explain away what Galatians 1:8 says! Muslims believe that Muhammad had the verses of the Qur’an revealed to him by an angel.

    Here is a scripture that exposes the Catholic Religion.

    Matthew 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

    Catholics have a Pope. Pope means 'father'. The Catholics even call their Pope 'Holy Father'. 'Holy Father' is a name reserved for God. Not only do the Catholic parishioners call the Pope and priests ‘father,’ the Pope and priests call each other 'father'. Jesus said not to call any one on earth 'father' and that they are all brothers. There are many other false doctrines in the Catholic religion, but starting from the top of their religion--- the Pope, that should be enough to stop there with that religion.

    Here is the one scripture that should stop the Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Messianic Jews, Christadelphians, and any religion who say people do not go to heaven.

    Matthew 23:13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut off the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

    There are other false doctrines in those religions, but that one scripture should be enough to stop any further involvement.

    This one scripture should stop any confusion brought on by Pentecostals.

    Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

    There is only one baptism of the Holy Spirit. Pentecostals believe in more than one baptism of the Holy Spirit. There is “one baptism.”

    Here is a scripture that should cause to more than question if one's tongue speaking is biblical. In addition, this one scripture should show there are not new prophecies, or new knowledge to add to the bible.

    1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

    Pentecostals, Charismatics, Assemblies of God, and the Word of Faith Movement believe in their false nowadays tongue speaking. In addition, this scripture tells us the Mormon religion is false with their added prophecies of “Another Testament.” Prophecies ceased.

    Here is one scripture to show that infant baptism is not biblical.

    Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    An infant cannot repent. Many denominations perform infant baptisms. The way to salvation changes by infant baptism. Infant baptism is not biblical. Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, a sect of Methodists, and Reformed denominations perform infant baptisms; they preach this falseness, which is a damaging blow to those needing the truth.

    Here is one scripture to show that baptism is by immersion.

    Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

    Baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. Our old nature is to "die" and we are to be "buried with Him through baptism into death" and raised to "walk in newness of life" (live like Jesus). So we do not just try to be a better person, we bury the "old person" in the water and become a "new person" through our acceptance of Christ. It is like a new birth and a new beginning for us.

    Here is a scripture that should dismiss Calvin's predestination belief.

    1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

    Reformed denominations believe in Calvin's theory. Calvinist beliefs are that God made people incapable of believing in Jesus; and that God will not allow them to believe, these people created to go to hell. Calvinism is a false doctrine. 1 Timothy 4:10 plainly says that the Savior is for "all men". Reformed denominations believing and preaching this falsehood usually have the name “Reformed” in their denominations name. Calvinists say we were born without the ability to believe in Jesus. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that. Why would you believe something that is not the word of God?

    Here is one scripture that explains there is an eternal punishment.

    Matthew 25:46 Jesus said, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

    Many believe in a temporary punishment, whereas after punishment the unrepentant will go to eternal life with Jesus. Jesus says that there is an eternal punishment.

    Here is one scripture that should stop some from saying that Jesus will save all.

    Exodus 32:33 The LORD replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.

    Some believe in Universalism, a belief that all will be saved. However, this one scripture shows that God will blot people out of the book of the living.

    There are no ifs, and, buts, or maybe. Jesus' word is plain and clear. Now if only we will believe and obey.
     
  15. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    Apostle Paul says, "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds. See Acts 26:20. What do you say about what Paul says?

    Do you not believe one should repent when they believe and before Jesus saves them? We must be sorry for our sins. Do you consider being sorry for you sins a work? Do you believe that a thief must repent of stealing? Do you believe repenting of stealing is a work? After Jesus saves us, we should continue to rely on Jesus. We can be successful in not returning to sin if we live through the Spirit.



    The Bible says, "encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. See Hebrews 3:13.
     
  16. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    I am still waiting for iconoclasts reply.
     
  17. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Wow! Along comes Moriah with answers to each and every doctrine known to man! :rolleyes:

    :love2:
     
  18. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    So, you really think there is a "verse" to prove this, correct? Of course you don't and you expect that this proves your point. It doesn't. It only shows your hermeneutic is weak and specious.

    You really should grow out of your proof-texting theology don't you think? Yes, please do. :wavey:
     
  19. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    I know this question is for Jerry; however, I cannot help but comment on your evil advice to him. You defend adding to God’s Word, and you try to shame Jerry for not doing so. I hope you repent of such sin.
     
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