Questions for Dispensationalists

If you're talking about the new heaven and new earth, I agree. But if you're talking about Christ as physical literal king on this dying corrupt earth, I disagree.

Also, it seems that there are varying views on who will be in the millennial kingdom. Some say the Jews, some say resurrected christians, some say both mortal and immortal. What say you?

 

That might make for a great thread :thumbs: I wouldn't want to derail this one...

 

Done. :type:

 

I should have included this:

Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

The promise is found in Genesis:

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: Gen 15:19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
Gen 15:20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,


I don't know how else to interpret these verses other than God kept His promise:

1Ki 4:21 And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life.

Neh 9:22 Moreover thou gavest them kingdoms and nations, and didst divide them into corners: so they possessed the land of Sihon, and the land of the king of Heshbon, and the land of Og king of Bashan.
Neh 9:23 Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it.
Neh 9:24 So the children went in and possessed the land, and thou subduedst before them the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, and gavest them into their hands, with their kings, and the people of the land, that they might do with them as they would.

2Sa 8:3 David smote also Hadadezer, the son of Rehob, king of Zobah, as he went to recover his border at the river Euphrates.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


Abraham lived and dwelt in the land of promise but that was not what he was looking for.

As Amy pointed out scripture states He is now on His throne. Jesus states in the scripture you quote that His Kingdom is not physical yet you insist there will be a physical kingdom. Why?

How else would you describe a spiritual kingdom without using physical terms? The writer of Hebrews tells these 1st century Jewish Christians they had come to Mount Zion:

Heb 12:22 But, ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers,
All these are types and shadows of future spiritual realities.

1Co 15:46 but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.

I have not made that statement.

So is it your belief that the earth was to be blessed by means other than the Church? Or that the Prophets spoke of the Church but did not know what they spoke of?

Was the New Covenant of Jer. 31 made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah or is it still future? Is this New Covenant the same as the one Jesus made?

Peter spoke of this nation after quoting OT passages:

1Pe 2:9 and ye are a choice race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people acquired, that the excellences ye may shew forth of Him who out of darkness did call you to His wondrous light;

As shown earlier the writer of Hebrews speaks of this Mount Zion:

Heb 12:22 But, ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers,

Abraham wasn't looking for a piece of land, that was just a type/shadow of a greater fulfillment.

 

How can you compare the two? Do you really think that Christ is now reigning in glory, when His name is trashed all over the globe? Only in the church is He honored, and certainly not by the 12 tribes. How could He be reigning in glory when the 12 tribes are blaspheming Him daily? And the glory He showed on the Mount of Transfiguration is nowhere to be seen? Yes, He is seated in Heaven right now. But He's certainly not reigning in glory from Zion, for most of the inhabitants of that city do not even know Him.

 

1 kings 4 says Solomon reigned over the land to the border of Egypt, not to the Nile. And it was not forever, as repeated several times in Genesis.

Without checking, the verses in Neh. appear to be speaking of Joshua's day. My earlier statements still stand, for I cited Amos, a contemporary of Neh., and other verses, both OT and NT, that have the bible saying the kingdom / land promise is yet future to Neh's day:
Amos 9
Romans 11:25ff
Acts 1 (Jesus didn't correct them)
Acts 3:19-26 (Jesus will "restore everything" when He comes)
2 Tim 4:1.

I think the verse you quoted is speaking of Gen 12:1, where Abe left Og, to a place where God said "I will show you." So he left not knowing where he was going. But this doesn't nullify the covenant, which did tell Abe where the land was.

See the passages I cited in my message. I just gave the answer.

The grammatical method allows for figurative language. And again, I noted that dispensationalists today all hold that there is a current spiritual kingdom. The difference is that we believe this has not replaced the clear literal promises made in the OT.

The phrase "all the nations of the earth will be blessed" does apply to the church. I'm sure God can have other means also if He wishes. The OT prophets spoke of the gentiles being blessed, but not specifically of the church. THey did not know how the gentiles would be blessed.

The covenant of Jer. 31 was made with "the house of Israel and the house of Judah." This is yet future. But as Hebrews points out, this covenant is applied to the church today, and in that sense is current. The fact that Hebrews applies this covenant to the church today does not logically mean that it will not literally be fullfilled in Israel and Judah as Jeremiah says.

Thank you for pointing out the wonderful verses. They have made me think.

 

I'm just quoting scripture. It says that Christ is now seated at the right hand of the Father. Christ is reigning in the Church. His Spirit indwells believers. We are the temple of God because God dwell in us.

Jesus said:

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

It seems that Christ's kingdom is not a visible earthly one.
Why do you keep trying to make it earthly? Isn't that what the Jews were looking for? They were wrong. You say He doesn't reign now on earth because of the evil and violence, so why would you think He would reign on a destroyed (because of the events of the tribulation), earth that is still filled with sinful people? I don't get it.

 

Again, see the previous posts. The bible teaches that there is indeed a present spiritual kingdom. The distinction is that this does not replace the literal one. As the previous posts point out, Jesus does say His kingdom is not of this world, but then He also turns around and says that it will be physically fulfilled in the future (Matt. 19:28, etc....again, see the previous posts.)

We are told that Jesus will "reign with a rod of iron." There is no need to rule like this if the only subjects are worshipping the King. The only reason a King would need a rod of iron is if He was meting out justice. This implies a messianic rule over people who are unbelievers. In the messianic Kingdom, the King will not allow evil and violence, even though there are unbelievers, because He is ruling........strictly, with a rod of iron.

 

Actaully it 'will be' but at the present time it is spiritual and 'that' is what scripture declares.

Please remember that the early church held to an earthly kingdom of Christ coming. The view of it being only spiritual was not widely held and did not come into prominance until Augustine 500 years later.

Even the disciples who were taught by Christ Jesus asked when He was going to 're-establish' the Kingdom of Israel. Look at Acts when Jesus was teaching them about the Kingdom of God and then what they asked:

Now watch what the apostles ask Jesus:

Did Jesus say 'it is not a physical kingdom I was just teaching you about'? No He did not but said "It is not for you to know when that time is". But what is for you to know is that you have been given power to be my witnesses.

because scripture declares it will be an earthly kingdom one day.

No, they were not because it was the promise of God to do such and God does not lie.

The only reason He doesn't completely and sovereignly reign over the earth (in a literal manner) now is because it is not God's appointed time. Right now it is under the power of the Prince of the power of the air. He is not bound or restrained but scripture actually states that in the last days things will get much worse - good will become evil and evil will become that which is considered good. Does that sound like he is restrained or chained? Nor does the bible

I would suggest you get a good book on the dispensational view and study it's scripture passages and views.. THEN get one on this view you are arguing for and compare the passages used there.

I have personally done this and come away absolutely convinced that niether full nor partial preterism is biblical (though they do have some biblical points to consider) - but that is me not you.

Remember God does not make a promise then not keep it and so for there to not be a literaly earthly Kingdom of God utilizing the people of Israel and Jerusalem as it's capital would make God a liar.

Thus Rom 11 makes much more sense to understand that Paul is speaking about that Kingdom of Isreal is coming (when all Israel will be saved) but for now it is the time of the Gentiles. Whereby Jews can be saved as well but the nation is still blinded as whole.

 

Allan, I have never said the devil has been chained. I haven't gotten to that yet.

That is a good suggestion. But I am not arguing "for" anything. I'm just looking into other interpretations and I think I have brought up some valid points.

Even among dispensationalists, the interpretations vary greatly.
For instance, some say the MK is a peaceful, righteous time with no death or sin. Some say it will be a time of rebellion, no different than the world today.
How do you know who's right?

 

One more time, then I'm done with this one.
No, the covenant has already been made in the OT. The church benefits, but from covenant already made.

No, there is only one covenant. The old dispensationalists went a bit overboard and held to two new covenants, one with Israel and one with the chiurch. No one that I know if teaches that today. There is only one new covenant. Made with Israel in Jer., which will be literally fulfilled in the future. Hebrews takes it and also applies it to the church today.

I respectfully submit that your third point does not apply, for the reasons already stated. Again, Hebrews does indeed apply the one NC to the church today. This does not mean that it cannot be literally fulfilled as promised.

As I bow out of this thread, may I suggest the following sources:
"The Greatness of the Kingdom" by Alva McClain.
"The Theocratic Kingdom" by George Peters.
Systematic Theology, Vol. 4, by Norman Geisler.

All these go into very much detail about the dispensatioinal position and literal interpretation.

Thanks, you've given me things to think about. Peace.

 

but it will eventually :laugh:

It was one made to me when I was asking just as many questions as you are, so I figured - it couldn't hurt to give you the same advise given me

Sorry, I was not meaning you 'believe' that specifically but that you are giving arguments from that view point.

One more thing to remember however about 'interpretation'. Men can come up with many different meanings for symbolism as well as interpretations, but scripture interprets itself. When you see something that is used metaphorically look at the rest of scripture to see when it was also used. Remember to look for the key words that make it metaphorical, words such as 'like' and 'as' for starters. example - His eyes were as a flame; His feet were like brass; 1 day with the Lord is as a 1000 years.

These words 'like' and 'as' used in this way convey not a literal meaning but a metaphorical one. Now just to clarify something, when scripture states that one day with the Lord is 'as' a thousand years.. it is refering back to Psa 90:4

but when dispy's state the reign of Christ will be a literal thousand years it is not based off of these scriptures but off of this:

Notice if you will a specific amount of time is spoken of here through the usage of 'a thousand years' and 'the thousand years'. It is a specific and set amount of time. We also see this in the other words used in describing the thousand years such as "when the thousand years were FINISHED" and "when the thousand years are EXPIRED". This literal physical reigning of Christ is a literal period of time that has both a beginning and end.

Not really. Among Dipsy's and Hyper-Dipsy's they vary greatly. Most Dipsy's and historical Dipsy's are very similar with some divergence on a few views.

I have never heard any Dipsy (historical or otherwise) state the thousand year reign of Christ will be rebellious just like in the world today. There will be a time of rebellion at the end of the thousand years (when the thousand years are expired) and satan is loosed to decieve the nations once again and leads those who have not received Christ to their destruction.

I 'have' heard some state that they 1000 years is one of peace (and that is true) and no death (this is not). These are typically those of the charismatic flavor but I do know some baptist who state this. The first part is true that it will be a time of peace but there will also be death but it will not be as prevelent as we see it today since there will be a change in many things and as such they will live much longer - like in Gen.

Those who have died or were raptured (before the Great Tribulation) will reign with Christ over the living during the Millennial Kingdom. During this time it will be a return to what life was like in the Garden of Eden. Creation will be restored to the way God had intended it, but not fully. There will still be sin and death. Sin will be dealt with quickly however, and death will be rare as the one who dies at 100 years of age will be considered a youth. Isaiah 65:20-25 describes this.

Here is a question asked to John MacArthor about death in the MK

 

Thanks Allan. You've given me a lot think about. I'll get back to you in about 10 years and let you know what I decided! :laugh:

One question I have asked a couple of times, but didn't get an answer is when the MK begins, the earth will be a mass of death and destruction due to the cataclysmic events of the tribulation, correct? This is the earth that Christ will rule? This will be a million times worse than Katrina and you say that people will live longer lives? There will be so much disease it's doubtful anyone would survive. And what about the cleanup? Talk about disaster relief! There won't even be places for people to live or food to eat. This is worldwide. How is all this explained?

 

Do you think that when Christ returns He will leave this all as it will be?

Scripture states He will heal it but not completely yet since sin and death are still present but held at bay. Scripture states most explicitly of the peace and joy in this Kingdom as well as His healing of the lands.

 

Could you provide that scripture?

 

Global Environment - The heavens and earth will be renewed to restore the creation to Eden like conditions and repair the damage from man’s long abuse and the judgments of the Tribulation period.3 Isa. 65:17; 4 Mtt. 19:28

Also many aspects of the curse (Gen. 3:15-19) will be reversed. People will live to a great age, but death will still occur.5 As before the flood, animals will revert to vegetarianism and will no longer fear man. Living waters will flow from beneath the sanctuary of the Millennial Temple bringing life to the regions they water. Isa. 11:6-9; 65:20, 25; Eze. 47:8-12; Zec. 8:4; 14:8; (Rev. 21:1-2+)

The earth be able to provide for mans productivity and will be fruitful as men will enjoy the fruit of their labors. Ps. 67:6-7; 72:16; Isa. 35:1; 55:13; 65:22; Joel 2:24-26; 3:18; Amos 9:13-14