Questions for those who believe that man's will is involved in salvation.

Hey KJB

Calvinism is a coherent system. If any one aspect can be disproved, then all five tightly integrated parts fall together.

Your last post returns us to the U of atonement in TULIP. Please note well your theological presupposition to redefine "ALL" as "not meaning every single solitary person." It is this postulate that you have great difficulty proving.

There are three grand soteriological themes that indicate the universality of the atonement: First, “He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the WHOLE WORLD” (1 John 2:2). John could have said, “for the world” or “for those who would believe,” but he said “the whole world.” A normal reading will lead us to the plain understanding of the all-inclusiveness of Christ’s death.

Second, “God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them” (2 Cor 5:19 ). Can it legitimately be asserted that “the world” means less than all humanity? Paul could have easily said “the elect” or “those who believe,” but the inspired text simply says “the world.”

Third, it was the OT sacrificial system that required blood alone for atonement. “When I see the blood I will pass over you” (Exod 12:13 ). “Blood makes atonement for the soul” (Lev 17:11 ). So, Jesus would say, “For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matt 26:28). In contrast to His blood being shed for many, 1 Tim 2:6 says that Christ “gave Himself a ransom for ALL” and the immediate context (1 Tim 2:1-6) qualifies the term “all.” It refers not to all the elect, but to “all men” (2:1) and “all who are in authority” (2:2), and indicates that God desires “ALL men to be saved” (2:4).

While I am against Calvinism, I recognize that it properly teaches justification - the chief article of theology. Hence, Calvinism is a grand Christian system that errors in a slightly unbalanced view of God. It's noble attempt to glorify God has backfired making God the author of sin, a capricious dictator, and limits Christ's Cross. Still, these errors are nothing compared to the gross Christ-denying heresies of Arminianism.

Lloyd

 

so then how were you saved, KJ and 4His_glory?

 

What kind of question is that?

 

What do you mean, here now?

Im asking for their testimony. Their personal experience. One man told me once that he just "woke up" one day and realized he was saved. He made absolutely no decision whatsoever, he just realized it one morning. I am merely wondering if this is what these gentlemen are referring to.

To be fair, I will add my own testimony. I was saved when I was 8 years old. Sitting in church I realized that I had never actually asked Jesus to come and save me.....so I did that then.

 

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, </font>[/QUOTE]I take it you do not know when / how you received the gift of God?

 

I also do not know the exact date and time of my own salvation, but I do remember it happening. Im glad to hear yours, as well, 4His_glory.

You understand, in other conversations Ive had like this I have had people tell me that they don't know when they got saved because they don't remember ever thinking about it. They never came to a conscious conclusion in their own minds. I thought that perhaps this is what you were saying.

I agree that the Holy Spirit convicts us, and yes, I believe it was the Holy Spirit that showed me my need.

 

4His_glory,

That is a great site. I hope many on these boards take a look at it! By the way it is easy to see that you stand only by the grace of God and are aware of such.

bapmom,

I would have to agree with you that I was saved by the pure and total grace of God! I was made willing to come to Him for forgiveness of my sin. I was made willing to understand that He is God! I love.....only because He first loved me.

ascund,

How about we use the same method on your word world?

I thought the word "world" meant "earth". Oh it does!

I thought the word "world" meant "evil system of things". Oh it does!

I thought the word world meant "all types of people". Wow it does!

You posted;

Those are great Scripture verses but I have to honestly answer you YES I can assert that it does not mean Jesus Christ died for ALL people as in every single one.

Wasn't a glimpse of the future proof enough for you?

Rev 5:9 says;

And they sing a new song, saying,
Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation

So ask yourself in light of what the future holds by declaration of Scripture......did Jesus Christ purchase ALL people or many out of the world?

If a glimpse of the future is not enough proof, I will use your word "world" as proof!

If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

"My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you. And all of them, since they are mine, belong to you; and you have given them back to me, so they are my glory!

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before Him in love; having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will

Now I will admit as far as I understand things He has redeemed all things to Himself but not all unto salvation.

He WILL save HIS people from their sins.

Tis not that I did choose thee, for Lord that could not be, this heart would still refuse thee, but thou hast chosen me, thou hast from the sin that stained me washed me and set me free, and to this end ordained me that I should live to thee. T’was sovereign mercy called me, and taught my opening mind, the world had else enthralled me, to heavenly glories blind. My heart owns none above thee, for thy rich grace I thirst, this knowing --- if I love thee, thou must have loved me first.”

Regards, KJB

 

This post and statement has been refuted so many times that it is useless to even discuss it with you KJB. YOu thinking is twisted here and is really not biblical. YOu are again telling God how He is to be soveriegn. A characteristic solely belonging of calvinist. If God says believe and live or don't and die who are you to tell God He has it all wrong. Am I too question God's soveriegnty everytime a prophet or disciple disobeyed God direct command too him. Of course not. I look for another reason or figure that it is not understandable. If God calls to all, if He died for all and offers to all, that is His plan. How a man recieving the work of someone else makes him responsable for that work is beyond me. When I read your post I think I will just claim I wrote them. When I recieve a handmade gift from someone on my birthday or annv. I will not say thank you, but " my, look what good work I have done" I mean, I had to recieve it so I earned.

I mean this respectfully but only, ...........and I mean only a cavlniist would try to push such pure, unadultrated garbage!

 

Those are great Scripture verses but I have to honestly answer you YES I can assert that it does not mean Jesus Christ died for ALL people as in every single one.</font>[/QUOTE]But all you do is an illegitimate transfer of a word from one context to another context. Words have meaning only IN CONTEXT. You cannot make the same word have the same meaning in every context. Let me show you.

__1. My nose runs.
__2. I run a race.

It would be terrible to take the meaning of run from #1 and force it upon #2 - and vice versa.

This is the nature of your exegies of the word "world."

CONTEXT RULES!
Lloyd

 

Timtoolman,

I have read your post a few times and have to say I really do not understand it. Would you please clarify?

ascund,

ok.

Regards, KJB

 

If at the point of salvation the man must choose to be saved or not the decision he makes saves him or not.
Jesus would have enabled the man to save himself. The man is his own saviour.

john.

 

Hey Johnp

You describe free will only from the viewpoint of works or merit. Free Grace (and some Arminian) theologians view it as a gift. What gift do you work for? If the gift comes with strings attached, it is no longer a gift!

When the gift is freely offered, it is not a work to accept such a fabulous offer. Sinners have done nothing to deserve such an expensive but free offer.

The best theologians are able to accurately describe the position of their opponents. In this way, their arguments are (in theory) even better. You gain nothing by building strawmen to tear apart except self-delusion.

Lloyd

 

Hey KJB

OK??? So you then agree that these quotes are to be read in their universal common sense context!

Lloyd

 

ascund,

My ok means ok I understand that a nose may run and feet may run just as feet may run and my nose may smell as my feet that are running smell. Brilliant!

Thanks for that insight!

You posted;

I have shown you that there is NO universal atonement. The following is proof that ALL people are not saved! I have no problem proving it, you only have a problem accepting it in your carnal mind.

Again for the last time a glimpse of the future;

"You are worthy to take the scroll
and break its seals and open it.
For you were killed, and your blood has ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.

I suppose if you can be so simplistic with me, I may use similar style.

Here is a fill in the blank for you to make it easier.

1. ___ are worthy to take the scroll and break its seals and open it.

a(I) b(you) c(Me) d(they)

2. For you were ____, and your blood has

a(killed) b(loved) c(fed) d(swimming)

3. and your blood has ransomed_________________________________________

a(people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.)

b(every person that ever lived on the earth.)

c(all the good guys)

d(only the pretty little birds and animals.)

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Grace is not only an offer of salvation although it most certainly is a grace.

God by His grace saves.

Hope that helps!

Thanks, KJB