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Questions in the face of disaster

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Mar 13, 2011.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I know what is scripturally consistent with His character. The randomness of God and/or His creation is an anti-biblical perspective that you share with Mr.Q.
     
  2. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    So let me get this straight.

    You do not believe the Bible when it says that no disaster comes to a city unless the Lord has done it, right?

    And you do not believe the Bible when in it God said, "I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal... I create well being and calamity...", right?
     
  3. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  4. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    I tell you what Rippon, you keep your philosophy, and I will keep mine. You and Luke keep your totally deterministic perspective of God and I will keep mine, non deterministic position.
     
  5. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    job 10:16
    And were my head lifted up, you would hunt me like a lion and again work wonders against me.

    job 6:4
    For the arrows of the Almighty are in me; my spirit drinks their poison; the terrors of God are arrayed against me.

    job 7:12
    Am I the sea, or a sea monster, that you set a guard over me?

    job 19:8
    He has walled up my way, so that I cannot pass, and he has set darkness upon my paths.

    job 19:10
    He breaks me down on every side, and I am gone, and my hope has he pulled up like a tree.

    job 16: 12-13
    All was well with me, but he shattered me;
    he seized me by the neck and crushed me.
    He has made me his target;
    his archers surround me.
    Without pity, he pierces my kidneys
    and spills my gall on the ground.
     
  6. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    "Shall not his excellency make you afraid? and his dread fall upon you? Your remembrances are like unto ashes, your bodies to bodies of clay. Hold your peace, let me alone, that I may speak, and let come on me what will. Wherefore do I take my flesh in my teeth, and put my life in mine hand? Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him"


    The key to suffering is that we trust God.
     
  7. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    here is something else I wrote that came from thinking about the earthquake...

    http://www.examiner.com/calvinism-in-national/japan-s-earthquake-and-philosphy

    More at the link..
     
  8. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I presented Scripture when I countered your view that the Lord's ways and means are sometimes random. What did you offer --your own personal philosophy -- no Scripture. I'll keep to the Bible texts thank you very much.
     
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Reply to Jarthur 001

    "1st, if you had taken the time to read the link, you would find that that was not my premise and I disagree with it.

    2nd you do not deal with love and pain and goodness.

    If I have the power to save a child from getting hit by a car, but I choose not to do this what would you call this?"


    First, the false premise I addressed was posted and I addressed it.

    Second, I exhaustively dealt with the Premise which included pain, suffering and death.

    Third, if God has the power to eliminate pain, suffering and death, but does not do it, would I say God is evil and not good? No, as my post explained, these are part of God's very good creation and serve God's purpose, which I believe is to lead us to God as a refuge.
     
  10. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    One thing you can count on at Baptist Board is seeing a WIDE range of views on a subject. And we've certainly seen that in this thread.

    I don't think even Pelagius would support the kind of Open Theology and outright denial of plain scripture represented in this thread.

    I'm reminded of what Tony Campolo said when Katrina hit NO - something to the effect that God wished He could stop the hurricane but could do nothing about it. Makes me wonder just who it is that these people worship?

    This isn't even a C v A issue. Wesley would faint if one of his students claimed that there are "random" events outside the control of God. (Although his theology unfortunateley does logically imply that, he would never claim it explicitly)
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Reply to Rippon

    I disagree with the assertion that these verses indicate God does not allow circumstances to occur, rather than always deterministically causing everything. To the degree that God created autonomous ability within His creation, then He can allow circumstances to occur without Him controlling the specific outcome.

    Words have meanings. The Bible speaks of people making choices, and to say they really only have one choice, that is to redefine the meaning of choice to mean non-choice.

    Does the Bible say God deterministically controls everything or does it say things happen by accident or by chance?

    Luke 10:31 says things happen by chance

    1 Samuel 6:9 indicates God allows things to happen by chance or according to His determinate control.

    Ecc. 9:11 again indicates things happen by chance.

    All this to say the behavior that divides us is taking scripture too far. To say because God does it this way in this verse, He always does it.
     
  12. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    I am more convinced that Calvinism is a sham than you are that our non-Calvinistic view is anti-scriptural. In fact, I was talking about this issue this past Sunday at church with the Sunday school class I attend. I stated that this Calvinistic doctrine is one of the worst thing the Baptist church has to deal with today. That this view is not only not supported by the Word of God, but that it is dangerous to the cause of Christ.
     
  13. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Robert, I say "to each his own" theologically speaking. However, my strong disagreement with reformed theology is how it is sometimes "imported" into a baptist church, which has not been historically reformed in its theology. It should always come before the church in a clear, concise and unambiguous manner to be debated prior to the call of pastor or minister. At that point, if that is the direction that the church wishes to go, so be it. No pastor or staff member holding reformed positions should come into a church "unannounced" and then seek to change the church to their liking.
     
  14. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    You are correct. Our pastor is new and has been at our church about six months. The only question I had concerning his appointment was that he was not a Calvinist. I am glad to say that he is not. If he had been, and the church had called him anyway, I would have left and found another church to attend.
     
  15. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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  16. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Or in other words we'll hold to the Bible and you'll hold to your own ideas you made up. 10-4.
     
  17. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Say whatever you want to Luke. Whatever you want to. Like or not, agree with it or not, you are doing nothing except holding to your view of the Bible and its message. Oh and BTW, nothing I said to YOU or Rippon was in anyway disrespectful, simply a position that YOU have taken, one of complete determiminism.
     
    #37 quantumfaith, Mar 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 14, 2011
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Sadly your post is true.It is almost shocking sometime to see it in print.Maybe in time some will continue to re-examine their posts, and see where they have departed from scripture.
     
  19. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Oh brothers!!! :BangHead:


    Van Van Van…..please don't google a word to prove your point. Understand the context.


    Luck 10 is a parable. Christ is placing the people into the story. It could read….and in this story there happened to be… Do you understand?



    No it does not!!! READ THE CONTEXT.

    1st this was mans reasoning. The Philistines have the ark and they ask their priest how to get the ark back to where it belonged. What you posted was what the PHILISTINE PRIEST SAID[SIZE=+1] [/SIZE]
    2nd...notice what happened.

    7“Now then, get a new cart ready, with two cows that have calved and have never been yoked. Hitch the cows to the cart, but take their calves away and pen them up. 8Take the ark of the Lord and put it on the cart, and in a chest beside it put the gold objects you are sending back to him as a guilt offering. Send it on its way, 9but keep watching it. If it goes up to its own territory, toward Beth Shemesh, then the Lord has brought this great disaster on us. But if it does not, then we will know that it was not his hand that struck us and that it happened to us by chance.”

    10So they did this. They took two such cows and hitched them to the cart and penned up their calves. 11They placed the ark of the Lord on the cart and along with it the chest containing the gold rats and the models of the tumors. 12Then the cows went straight up toward Beth Shemesh, keeping on the road and lowing all the way; they did not turn to the right or to the left. The rulers of the Philistines followed them as far as the border of Beth Shemesh.
    Van...Do you understand what this book is about? Key words here…UNDER THE SUN.

    UNDER THE SUN....LIFE WITHOUT GOD.

    Now read the text again. This is saying, if there is no GOD…then life is but time and chance. But…there is a God.
     
  20. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    Luke and company believe God created robots who He maneuvers like a video game. We believe God created human beings and gave them a choice to love Him or not. Being able to manipulate bible verses to prove non-biblical principles is not what God intended nor is it a true representation of the
    Gospel.
     
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