R Sproul's book "Chosen by God".

The Lord God gave Adam and Eve limited sovereignty over the Garden and we are stewards in the care of our earth.

Other than a presupposition why would anyone even think that God would do His own choosing as to every persons eternal security or lack of it?

We are created in the 'image of God' and have a certain degree of autonomy. Sinners and saints have moral responsibility to believe or not believe in the record of His Son [I John 5:12 & 5:13].

Again, Dr. Sproul is blinded by the view that the Lord God only has one Attribute. You guess it; sovereignty! This is what makes for careless theological thinking.

 

If you read Sproul you will see that he does not view the lord with only one attribute. He has a great article in the Tabletalk flyer that I will post this weekend, where he disproves your view, Ray, of his belief.

 

From the OP--"If God is truly God then He decides who goes to Heaven and who doesn't."

I always find it amusing that some so vehemently oppose election that they blow right by the fact that Calvinists and Arminians should be in TOTAL AND COMPLETE AGREEMENT with Dr. Sproul's statement, as it stands.

For there should be no disputing that God HAS IN FACT DECIDED-- Those in Christ go to Heaven and those not in Christ go to Hell. Other than a 'presuppostion' why would anyone deny this most basic element of the Christian faith?

 

Absolutely. We may disagree on exactly how that is worked out, but neither side should disagree with that statement.

 

Hi Russel55;

It would of course depend on what His decision was about. First He didn't decide to save some and reject others. Only some are saved simply because the rest rejected His offer. It is not God's fault that most men reject the truth. God's decision about Salvation was to save all that have faith in Christ. To save all who respond to the invitation. Matt 11:28. All can be saved because all of man's sin are paid for.
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

Sorry a duplicate post

 

ILUVLIGHT,

Yes, we would differ on the exact way his decision is worked out. But no one should disagree with the statement in the opening post, which is a general statement.

 

On the contrary, He did indeed chose to save some and reject others--

He chose to save those who are in Christ and He cose to reject those not in Christ.

I'm reminded of a former pastor of mine who hated Calvinism. Once he got wound up and asked during a sermon, "Would you want to love, honor and serve a God who before the foundation of the world decided who was going to heaven and who was going to hell?" The only solution to that objection was that prior to the foundation of God had not yet decided that salvation would be to those in Christ.

 

Well now, Have you yet read this book? I have the book and its great, substantiates his claims with scripture!
He asks:
"Why does God only save some?
The only answer I can give to this question is that I don't know! I dont'd doubt for a moment that God has the power to save all, but I know that He does not choose to save all. I dont
know why."
If we stop needing answers from God about the details of His business and trust Him we then find our trust in Him grows and we then need fewer answers. We cannot put HIm in a box!!
Whether we think His ways are fair or not, they are still His ways and we have no power over Him but He has ALL power over us! Even our next breath is due to HIs grace!

 

To reference the Basic Calvinist future Scenario “posted” with details “ignored” by Calvinists ON a thread about God not loving the lost –

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1543/2.html#000015


To see the “perfect” Calvinist confirmation “in a nutshell” –

The inner quotes contain “The scenario”. Everything else is my commentary. (Of course the entire thing is my own test scenario for Calvinism)

<You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?>

Here we see Calvinism’s view of God who (arbitrarily from the POV of human eyes) selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the Calvinist mind.
</font>[/QUOTE]Calvinist future scenario complete!


Notice the “focus” in that perfect Calvinist utopian future - is always on “you” the one that is arbitrarily selected and then justifying the callous disregard of your precious child under the guise of “Well God does not HAVE to care about ANYONE just be glad YOU made it”.
Fascinating!

All well and good for the Cavlinist position - but what about the Arminian view?

And for us Arminians (and our 3-Pt Calvinist Bretheren) - well we will just have to be content with the fact that God really DOES "So Love the World" not merely the "Few " of Matt 7 - and He is the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT our sins only - but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2::2.

We will have to be content in all eternity with the God that DOES Love ALL and died for ALL and "IS not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to Repentance". Somehow that will have to help us enjoy eternity too. I wonder how we will fair by comparison.

 

Bob, I think I recall Larry telling you not to spam threads with your future scenario nonsense.

The future scenario isn't how we discern truth- scripture is.

 

A. This is not spam it is simply exposing an embarassing gap in Calvinism.

B. I have ALSO posted John 3:16 and 1John 2:2 a few dozen times. (Which Calvinists must view as "just more SPAM" since they also refute Calvinism).

C. Your response engages in the typical "dodge" as Jarhed just posted that the typical response he is getting from Calvinism is either "SILENCE on the point raised or an insult to my person". I guess your response qualifies as both??!

Why not just address the point? It makes for much better debate!

It has been SHOWN the Calvinists are in AGREEMENT with EACH of the salient points in the Scenario - SO WHY do you object to what CALVINISTS CLAIM???

Is it simply that when put "together" they do not PLEASE You??

JohnP has come out EVEN STRONGER in his affirmation of the Calvinist points raised in the Calvinists future scenario saying "God is Tyrant". I DID not go as far as the CALVINIST in that case --- and STILL you can whine??

That is amazing!!

Better to just address the points as they are central to this thread.

In Christ,

Bob

 

We have a tread ON THE TOPIC of "CHOSEN by GOD" and the question of arbitrarily selecting some but not others.

I post a scenario ON THAT VERY POINT and Calvinists have to "pretend" that they "just don't see it"??

What is up with that??

Have you guys run out of road on your own argument so soon??

In Christ,

Bob

 

Maybe you need "some help"

Here is what Calvinists have confessed to --

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JohnP
The Lord has mercy on who He wants and to Hell with the rest for His glory and our deeper reverence.
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1586/19.html#000275

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So your OWN Calvinist promoters are ENDORSING the CENTRAL points in the Calvinist scenario and STILL you want to pretend that you don't see how this applies to the subject??????

What more "help" do you need?

Well since you appar to be "Desperate" let me remind you of what YOUR OWN are saying --


Here we see a post arguing that God should not be expected to “care” for all – particularly not the lost –

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1547.html#000000


Here is a quote showing the fact that from the human POV there is no difference between the lost and the elect. (i.e. arbitrary selection) accepted by Calvinists today.

Notice that it also affirms the “expected future condition” of parents in heaven although their child is “lost”. (Parent selected, Child not selected)

And here we see confirmed the "all deserve hell but is it not great that some are selected to be elect point of Calvinism – as it turns from the sorrowful case of the lost and just sees how they “deserve what they get”.

God “shows mercy to SOME but not others” according to Pastor Larry.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1406/5.html#000069

Calvinist overjoyed at this inexplicable selection” of one and not the other idea.. In their view – God saves all He “cares” to save and none else..

Here we see the joy of God sending some to hell and others to save and BOTH groups perfectly performing His will – a monstrous idea that would get you “locked up” if you treated a family member this way (according to the Calvinist quote below)

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hi Russel55;

Exactly:

The Calvinis I believe sould have said it like this;
If God is truly God then He already decided.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

Monergist;

True, but died for the whole world;

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Notice the whole world and not our sins only
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

And this guy is a noted theologian??

He only saves some because only some will believe.

 

Monergist;
I'm sorry I wasn't going to respond to this statement and then decided that I should;

If God were subject to time maybe. I find it harder to understand Omni presents the more I think about it. To God I would think there is no "before" or "after" as we know it because, He isn't subject to time. He is in the past at the same time as He is in the future. The possibilities of Omni presents and the limitations of time are infinite. God knows what He knows because any event you can think of good or bad He is there. There isn't one place where He isn't.

I think we are stepping out into the imaginative when ever we try to comprehend the infinity of God.
How is it we can assume what God knew? When He is all knowledgable and we aren't. Not to offend anyone's inteligence, but we are all as dumb as tree stumps compared to God. Being that dumb I just don't see how I could ever hope to figure it out.

In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

So you are willing to admit that Calvinism might be true?