Rabbi, Father, Teacher?

And some scripture should be left alone.

Because if it is taken to most extreme conservative literal view, then you cannot call the one that sired you, your father in any shape or form what so ever.

You cannot call or refer to anyone as teacher in any shape or form.

ditto for master.

 

Not mincing at all. Here, you yourself explain it:

But that's exactly what happens in practice with the leaders being called "Father". This is way different than addressing or referring to a natural father, or a distant spiritual father, ot the reverse of calling someone your spiritual son. When you write to the Pope, you address Him as "Holy Father", just like Jesus addressed God the Father in prayer!

The fact that you admit that they were fluid in the apostolic age, and became fixed in the second century shows that there was a change. So you can't claim it is from "apostolic tradition"; the Church changed in that passing century.

So now, we're all going to hell for not believing in your leaders? The difference is, God actually did directly speak to Moses and appoint him as leader. Not a magisterium that rose up later on, further elevated and given power by a pagan state.

 

Wow, with those large post you made you missed a verse? I thought that was the entire Bible???

 

I think it boils downs to an aversion to submitting to anyone in authority such an elder, presbyter, priest or bishop. They are no more holy than you, but they have been assigned the position of over you.

 

I agree, I attribute this to man loosing sight of the sheep shepherd relationship of Christ Church. I know the pastor is not THE Shepherd but he is the under-shepherd that God has placed over the flock. Too many Churches and Church folks want the pastor to be a sheep. They put committee's etc... to be OVER the pastor.

However, Jesus did warn us that some of the sheep are really wolves in sheep clothing. Unfortunately, we have to talorate these wolves or goats because it is Christ himself that will divide the flock (Mt. 25:32,33) just as he will divide the wheat from the tare.

 

[3] All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Jesus still teaches obedience and does not distinguish if the leader is "good" or not.

[11] But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

Again, the shepherd is a servant to his sheep. He beats down the tall grass with his rod and annoints their weiry bug filled hair. Rubs their feet and protects them from all hurt and harm.

[12] And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

This verse is key and why we should all strive to serve than to be served...

 

Sorry, I have ADD and do go off topic.

Most of my members call me Chuckie because they've known me all my life. I prefer Brotha because Rev. was my Dad.

 

okay Dr Fuss, Jesus did say we are all brethren, but no where does he say we are equals. Jesus had hundreds of disciples, but he elevated 12 to the posistion of APOSTLE. In addition he elevated one above the rest by giving him a name change just as God elevated Abraham above the rest. This evident that whenever the Apostles are listed, Peter is listed first with Judas being listed last. Then you have the position of Elders, Presbyters, and Bishops that are elevations above the common people. You can of course ignore this too. The implications are there.

 

Bishop, Priest, and Deacon





The sacrament of holy orders is conferred in three ranks of clergy: bishops, priests, and deacons.

Bishops (episcopoi) have the care of multiple congregations and appoint, ordain, and discipline priests and deacons. They sometimes appear to be called "evangelists" in the New Testament. Examples of first-century bishops include Timothy and Titus (1 Tim. 5:19–22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5).

Priests (presbuteroi) are also known as "presbyters" or "elders." In fact, the English term "priest" is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15).

Deacons (diakonoi) are the assistants of the bishops and are responsible for teaching and administering certain Church tasks, such as the distribution of food (Acts 6:1–6).

In the apostolic age, the terms for these offices were still somewhat fluid. Sometimes a term would be used in a technical sense as the title for an office, sometimes not. This non-technical use of the terms even exists today, as when the term is used in many churches (both Protestant and Catholic) to refer to either ordained ministers (as in “My minister visited him”) or non-ordained individuals. (In a Protestant church one might hear “He is a worship minister,” while in a Catholic church one might hear “He is an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion.”)

Thus, in the apostolic age Paul sometimes described himself as a diakonos ("servant" or "minister"; cf. 2 Cor. 3:6, 6:4, 11:23; Eph. 3:7), even though he held an office much higher than that of a deacon, that of apostle.

Similarly, on one occasion Peter described himself as a "fellow elder," [1 Pet. 5:1] even though he, being an apostle, also had a much higher office than that of an ordinary elder.

The term for bishop, episcopos ("overseer"), was also fluid in meaning. Sometimes it designated the overseer of an individual congregation (the priest), sometimes the person who was the overseer of all the congregations in a city or area (the bishop or evangelist), and sometimes simply the highest-ranking clergyman in the local church—who could be an apostle, if one were staying there at the time.

Although the terms "bishop," "priest," and "deacon" were somewhat fluid in the apostolic age, by the beginning of the second century they had achieved the fixed form in which they are used today to designate the three offices whose functions are clearly distinct in the New Testament.

 

Majoala,

You are busy with your own theology!
You have developed a good skill to twist the bible teachings!

 

I could say the same about you as well.

 

Matt. 23:9 - Jesus says, "call no man father." But the Ignorant and Unstable use this verse in an attempt to prove that it is wrong for anyone to call priests "father." This is an example of "eisegesis" (imposing one's views upon a passage) as opposed to "exegesis" (drawing out the meaning of the passage from its context). In this verse, Jesus was discouraging His followers from elevating the scribes and Pharisees to the titles of “fathers” and “rabbis” because they were hypocrites. Jesus warns us not to elevate anyone to the level of our heavenly Father.


Matt. 23:8 – in this teaching, Jesus also says not to call anyone teacher or rabbi as well. But don’t the Ignorant and Unstable call their teachers “teacher?” What about this commandment of Jesus? When the Ignorant and Unstable say “call no man father,” they must also argue that we cannot call any man teacher either.

Judges 17:10; 18:19 - priesthood and fatherhood have always been identified together. Fatherhood literally means "communicating one's nature," and just as biological fathers communicate their nature to their children, so do spiritual fathers communicate the nature of God to us, their children, through (hopefully) teaching and example.

Eph. 3:14-15 - every family in heaven and on earth is named from the "Father." We are fathers in the Father.

Acts 7:2; 22:1,1 John 2:13 - elders of the Church are called "fathers." Therefore, we should ask the question, "Why don't the Ignorant and Unstable call their pastors "father?"

1 Cor. 4:15 - Paul writes, "I became your father in Christ Jesus."

1 Cor. 4:17 - Paul calls Bishop Timothy a beloved and faithful "child" in the Lord.

2 Cor. 12:14 - Paul describes his role as parent over his "children" the Corinthians.

Phil. 2:22 - Paul calls Timothy's service to him as a son serves a "father."

1 Thess. 2:11- Paul compares the Church elders' ministry to the people like a father with his children.

1 Tim. 1:2,18; 2 Tim. 1:2-3 - Paul calls Timothy his true "child" in the faith and his son.

Titus 1:4 - Paul calls Titus his true "child" in a common faith. Priests are our spiritual fathers in the family of God.

Philemon 10 - Paul says he has become the "father" of Onesimus.

Heb. 12:7,9 - emphasizes our earthly "fathers." But these are not just biological but also spiritual (the pastors, ministers, sheperds, and priests of the Church).

1 Peter 5:13 - Peter refers to himself as father by calling Mark his "son."

1 John 2:1,13,14 - John calls the elders of the Church "fathers."

1 John 2:1,18,28; 3:18; 5:21; 3 John 4 - John calls members of the Church "children."