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Rapture: Pre-trib? Mid-trib? Pre-wrath? Post-trib?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by windcatcher, Feb 2, 2008.

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  1. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    That the Prophecy of Ezekiel will be fulfilled as it is written is evident in that all Prophecy is always fulfilled as it is written.

    One thing we must never forget is that vicarious sacrifice of animals, that is, an animal dying in the stead of the sinner for the purpose of a temporary atonement and forgiveness of sins...never saved anyone.

    So we contrast the sacrificial system of the Law (and all animal sacrifice, which is not exclusive to the Covenant of Law, but dates back to the Garden, and can be seen performed by Abel, Noah, Abraham, Job, and Jacob prior to the establishment of the Covenant of Law) with the Sacrifice of Christ. The former could not take away sins...


    Hebrews 10:1 & 4
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.



    ...and the latter not only takes away sin, it makes one complete in regards to remission of sins forever...


    Hebrews 10:14
    King James Version (KJV)

    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



    "Perfection" here, in the Greek, means completion, a bringing to an end.

    All of that to point out that though sacrifice will resume in the Millennial Kingdom, this is an issue of Heritage with Israel, not an issue of atonement, nor does it conflict with the Atonement. of the Cross.

    You say "Calvary FINISHED all sacrifices" yet we see Paul willing to participate in an offering long after Calvary:



    Acts 21:17-26
    King James Version (KJV)

    17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.

    18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

    19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

    20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

    21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

    22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

    23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

    24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

    25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

    26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.



    It seems that James, and the Elders at Jerusalem (who were a confused bunch in my opinion, lol) still continued in the practices of their heritage, though, as we can logically conclude with Paul, did not mean they were "keeping the Law" as a means of either relationship or salvation. Nowhere are Jews demanded that they stop being Jews in Scripture, nor are they demanded they refrain from their heritage. I think we can safely say that this unique body, Israel, stands apart in History as a created people of God. And while they were but a picture of the "one man" God would create, the Church, that is, some of us believe that they still have a role to play in Eschatological matters. There will be a rebuilt Temple for Antichrist to defile, and there will be restored Levitical Service. And it is my own view that the Prophecy of the Old Testament will unfold as it has been written, but the sacrifices offered there will not have any more salvific value than it did for Israel when they were practicing it in the past.

    Only the Sacrifice of Christ can take away sins, and it is only through the Cross that salvation is effected. So I see no conflict in reinstituted sacrifice in the Millennial Kingdom.


    God bless.
     
  2. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    The problem I have with the argument presented is that it does not take into consideration that the Rapture of the Church cannot be viewed as "being taken out of the way." Also, "being taken out of the way" can be applied to the restraining power of God over Evil, so we can very much view the Restrainer as God Himself. And it is not illogical to consider the restraining that God has done, and will do...through the Church. That does not mean that I view the removal of restraint as tied to the Rapture. There seems to be a correlation to the unveiling of the man of sin, the Antichrist, which takes place at the mid-point of the Tribulation, not prior to it. The Two Witnesses minister unmolested for three and a half years, and Antichrist is also given three and a half years in which he is unveiled and declares himself to be God. Daniel 12 asserts three and a half years following the Abomination of Desolation, so it makes the best sense to view the Restrainer as being taken out of the way at the mid-point of the Tribulation, at which time Antichrist can actually fulfill the prophecy of his abomination.

    Understand that the Holy Spirit is in fact God. When God set the limits on Satan, it was God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost Who did that. We do not have three gods, but One God Who is in perfect unity. When Christ tells the Disciples He will send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, He shows that unity by showing He will also be coming:


    John 14:15-18
    King James Version (KJV)

    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.



    Lastly I would just point out that what we see in Revelation is certainly not an "unhindered Antichrist," lol. Almost feel sorry for him, seeing what he is going to go through, and the end he comes to.

    Almost...

    ;)


    God bless.
     
  3. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    The fulfilment of OT prophecy is seen in the Lord Jesus Christ & his saving work, & in the church (comprising Jew & Gentile as one redeemed people of God.)

    Ezekiel's prophecy was during the exile, & a new temple was built. Jesus denounced the abuse of the temple, announced its destruction (Mat. 24) and made it clear that true worship would not be locallised, but true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. John 4

    A future temple offering animal sacrifices for sin (Eze. 43) would falsify the prophecy of Jesus. And the living water refers to the Holy Spirit.

    You are assuming a future millennium as a dispensation in which OT prophecies that have no place in the NT Scriptures can be literally fulfilled. But there is no need for a future millennium temple to fulfill prophecy as the New Covenant temple is the redeemed people of God, aka the church, built with living stones.

    During the Apostolic period, God was calling the Jews in Jerusalem & Judea as well as the dispersion. The temple remained for 40 years & the Gospel was preached in it, & sacrifices continued.

    Paul joined in the vow & the sacrifice as a witness to the Jews to honour the conscience of the Jewish believers. In the providence of God the Jews themselves prevented that sacrifice.

    You say, "Only the Sacrifice of Christ can take away sins, and it is only through the Cross that salvation is effected. So I see no conflict in reinstituted sacrifice in the Millennial Kingdom."

    That assertion is completely illogical, as the Ezekiel temple sacrifices are for sin so that the people will be accepted by God:
    ....... 43:25 Every day for seven days you shall prepare a goat for a sin offering; they shall also prepare a young bull and a ram from the flock, both without blemish. 26 Seven days they shall make atonement for the altar and purify it, and so consecrate it. 27 When these days are over it shall be, on the eighth day and thereafter, that the priests shall offer your burnt offerings and your peace offerings on the altar; and I will accept you,’ says the Lord God.”

    The old covenant, with all its rituals & sacrifices was FINISHED at Calvary.

    I believe, with Peter, that the thousand years is the present Gospel age, & there will be no future millennium.
    2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
     
  4. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Hmm, Over 6200 views!

    HankD
     
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Here is a Prophecy that is not "seen" as fulfilled:


    Zechariah 14
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

    2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

    3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

    4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

    5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.



    Those who deny the Prophecy of the Old Testament and counter with "It's been fulfilled in Christ" make the implicit statement"...God gave much Prophecy for nothing."

    If, as you suggest, the next event on the agenda is the prophecy of Peter (as you give in your response), we negate quite a bit of Prophecy. An example would be as see above, where the Lord, in your doctrinal position, does not fulfill this Prophecy. There is no gathering of all nations against Jerusalem, so we can scratch that out of Revelation as well.

    Here is more Prophecy that cannot be fulfilled (and has not to date) based on your view:


    Isaiah 65:20
    King James Version (KJV)

    20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.



    If your position is right, this means there will be death and sinners...in the Eternal State!

    Better to understand that Prophecy will be fulfilled as it always is, to the jot and tittle. The first quote applies to the Return of Christ, and correlates to the events of Revelation, as well as Matthew 25, where we see the Lord judge between the Sheep and Goats when He returns.

    You really have to remove quite a bit of Scripture to make your position tenable.


    It was not built according to the direction of God. It will be in the Millennial Kingdom.

    This Prophecy...


    Daniel 12:11-13
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

    13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.



    ...was given during the captivity of Israel as well, yet it too has gone unfulfilled to date. So do we just assume God gave it for nothing? A little "fluff" to fill some pages?

    Not at all, it will be fulfilled, and we know it was not in the Day of Christ:



    Matthew 24:15-16
    King James Version (KJV)

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:



    While we could (and I stress the word could) give an application of this to First Century events, we do not give it its ultimate fulfillment just as we do not give the First Coming of Christ a final application of all Prophecy. When He came the First time and ministered among Israel, it was as the Messiah foretold in Scripture, ministering in specificity to Israel. This is why the Disciples, when sent out to preach The Gospel of The Kingdom, were forbidden to go unto either Gentiles or Samaritans, but to the Lost Sheep of Israel only. It would not be until Christ was made complete as the Offering for Sin, rose again, and returned to Heaven (from wwhence He came), and sent the Comforter...

    ...that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was revealed to men. If you do a search on the word "mystery," you will see that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not revealed in Ages past, but in this Age only. It was given in Prophecy, but, the illumination of that Word was not. This is why the Disciples, after being told they would be Baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence...asked if the Lord would at that time restore the Kingdom of Israel (which is the understanding of the revelation they had up to that date).



    And you make the same mistake most people make (and I'm not trying to be rude, Covenanter, this is just how I see it): you impose into the Temple a realistic "worship," rather than seeing that it was simply a physical picture of what God would do.

    Again, that is the same exact quality the Millennial Temple will have.

    Keep in mind that the Millennial Kingdom will still be physical. Men will still, in that Age, need to be born again. And the Temple is specific to Israel in those days, though we see all Nations will give attendance (Zechariah 14:16-19, which has also not been fulfilled). Now here is the thing to think about: when Job offered up sacrifice for his children (standing in the role of Priest), he did so with them unaware of the process. The atonement that was given was not eternal (as Christ's is), but temporal.

    That is the point I am trying to make: the sacrifices of the Millennial Temple should not be compared to that of Christ's Offering. Two entirely different issues are involved. The sacrifices offered in the Old Testament, beginning with the death of an animal, or animals to cover Adam's sin, and all the way up to the Cross...

    ...did not take away sin. Never did, never will.


    Not at all. Because they are two different sacrifices which accomplish two entirely different effects. One is physical/temporal/temporary, and one is spiritual and Eternal.

    That is what most people fail to understand in this debate.


    Continued...
     
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  6. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, meant to comment on this, and forgot to: It is specific to the Holy Spirit He is prophesying of coming, but, it is also a reference to the Word of God, particularly the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We do not have "eternal life" or the Holy Spirit flowing out of us, but we do have the Gospel of Jesus Christ flowing out of us, and that is the intent, I believe, of the Lord's statement.


    John 7:38-39
    King James Version (KJV)

    38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


    We see this exampled in the Disciples when they are Baptized with the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, and immediately begin to preach the Gospel. And we see eternal life granted as a result of that outpouring.


    Not sure how viewing what Scripture says will take place is...assumption.

    What you are saying here is that there is a discrepancy between the Old Testament Prophecy and New Testament Revelation (meaning the Word of God). That is a position I will not share with you,. because all prophecy is in complete harmony with itself.


    There is. There is specific instruction given on how it is to be built and we do not see that in the rebuilt Temple.

    Just because you equate the sacrifices of the Temple with the Sacrifice of Christ does not mean that the Bible does:


    Hebrews 10:1-4
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

    2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

    3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.



    The sacrifices, though ordained of God...never served to reconcile man to God, and could not take away the penalty of sin that still hung over their heads despite the offerings.

    Only Christ's Offering of Himself can do that:



    Hebrews 10:10-14
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

    12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


    (italics in v.10 represent translational insertion)


    The point the Writer (and the Holy Spirit) make here is that those sanctified by the Blood of Christ are made complete in regards to remission of sins forever.


    This is true, but what does that have to do with God fulfilling His promise to Israel in restoring the Kingdom of Israel?

    There are many Prophecies and promises given to Israel in regards to the physical kingdom of Israel. This is the Kingdom Christ instructed about often in His Ministry to Israel. While there is application of His teaching to this present Age, there is also application to the Age that is taught in Prophecy, which will be the final Age of this physical universe.

    If one holds to a system of Theology that makes one deny the very Word of GOd, it is a good idea for that one to re-examine the system he has adopted.

    We can no more toss out any Old Testament Prophecy, because the moment we do, we become the ones deciding which Scripture we will embrace and which Scripture we will remove.

    Here is another example of the future application of Old Testament Prophecy (and its consistency):


    Ezekiel 39
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

    2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

    3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

    4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

    5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.




    Revelation 19:17-21
    King James Version (KJV)

    17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

    18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

    19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.



    This corresponds to Christ's teaching here:



    Luke 17:34-37
    King James Version (KJV)

    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.



    ...and here...



    Matthew 24:27-28
    King James Version (KJV)

    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.



    And while our A-millennial brethren may have convinced themselves that the universe will melt with fervent heat at the Return of the Lord, Prophecy shows us that there is a physical earth still inhabited after the Lord Returns:



    Ezekiel 39:9-13

    King James Version (KJV)

    9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

    10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.

    11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

    12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

    13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord God.


    Prophecy is consistent, and all of this will be fulfilled. Its always a wonder to me how some deny Prophecy, and see it as already fulfilled, yet the one thing necessary to make their position tenable has not been fulfilled...

    ...the Return of Christ.


    Continued...
     
  7. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    It did. And we see Paul willing to participate.

    Explain that a little better than you try to here, Covenanter.


    I would agree with that...

    ...but why?

    Didn't you just say Calvary FINISHED all sacrifices?

    Read the account, Covenanter. In view is James and the elders questioning Paul as to whether he "taught Gentiles to forsake Moses." Now here is the odd thing: that is exactly what Paul did:


    Acts 21:21
    King James Version (KJV)

    21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.



    Do we not, in Paul's teaching, see that he taught even the Jews that they could no longer seek relationship with God through the Covenant of Law (Colossians 2:14)? Did he not teach that circumcision was nothing (Romans 2:28)? Does the fact that no man is to judge any man concerning Holy Days...not apply to Jews (Colossians 2:28)?


    Again, the fact remains Paul was willing to participate in this ritual, in which offerings were made. And that, Covenanter, cannot be viewed as Paul involving himself in sacrifice and offerings which have an atoning or cleansing quality to them. We know Paul preach Christ crucified, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ for salvation, and that was the only means of Reconciliation and Redemption.

    And if you ask me, I have to question that the Jews were "honored" by Paul's actions. He would have done better to tell James and the Elders, "Look, fellas, the fact is that we have too many Jews who think they must still perform the works of the Law, and this because they were born and bread into Judaism. Now is a good opportunity to clarify this issue as we did concerning the Gentiles (Acts 15)." A clear presentation of the Gospel and a comparison of the Law and its sacrifices, just as the Writer of Hebrews does (who I highly suspect is Paul, writing anonymously because of the hatred held towards him for the very reason he agrees to participate in this ritual).


    I would agree with that in large part, because it would have set an abhorrent precedent in Scripture, and, I think, caused much confusion if it had been carried out.

    But the point remains...Paul was willing to participate.


    Continued...
     
  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    It's illogical to separate the qualities of the sacrifices of the Law and the Sacrifice of Christ?

    Keep in mind that the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery until revealed by the Spirit (the Comforter) sent from Heaven (John 16:7-9, 1 Peter 1:12). The Prophecy of the Old Testament, and the teaching of Jesus Christ...were given within the framework of the Law (and it is the Age of Law that is specific to our discussion, there is Prophecy given prior to the establishment of the Law). When salvation and New Birth is foretold...


    Ezekiel 36:22-27
    King James Version (KJV)

    22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

    23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

    24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



    ...it is specific to Israel, but, it also has application to Gentiles as well. But we don't see that in the Prophecy, because they were given this Prophecy within the understanding of what was revealed unto them in that day.

    Secondly, I would again point out that the Millennial Kingdom is a physical Kingdom (howbeit a respite to some effect of the Curse) which will be comprised of physical people, who, again, will all have to be born again. So what we will have is a Nation of Israel, who despite the fact that only born again believers enter into that Kingdom, will still be a physical people prone to sin, because they have not yet been glorified. Again, I see no conflict of a physical System applied to physical people. Those who are born again will no more "save people" than we do today, everyone will have to yield to the Comforter and be born again,


    This is true, however, that does not mean that the relationship God has with Israel was over. It does not mean His promise to them to restore the Kingdom of Israel was cancelled. That is the reason why the disciples ask about it, because Messiah was there, so where was the Kingdom that was promised them?


    Acts 1:4-8
    King James Version (KJV)

    4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

    5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

    6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

    7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.



    There is nothing in His response whereby we could impose a meaning of "This isn't going to happen now." He states simply "Its not for you to know when..."


    Well, that's interesting, because at this point we have had two of them.

    All Peter is saying here is that "time means nothing to the Eternal God," he isn't giving a secret formula by which we change how we interpret Prophecy.

    Nor is it able to remove from Scripture the Prophecy given, nor deny that there is a Thousand Year Kingdom Prophesied of in Scripture, which will fulfill God's promise on a physical basis for the Nation of Israel.

    God does not renege on any promise, and that is precisely what we have to conclude if one jot of Prophecy has been cancelled.


    God bless.
     
  9. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for those studies, Darrell. They need a lot of further study which will take time.

    My immediate reaction is that OT prophecies concern -
    the judgment exile & restoration of Israel as recorded in the OT histories, & in the inter-testamental period;

    the coming & saving ministry of Christ;

    the Apostolic Gospel period including the spread of the Gospel through the Roman Empire during which the OT promises are given to all believers;

    the deliverance of the Jerusalem believers before the AD 70 destruction;

    the AD 70 destruction being a focus for God's wrath against those Israelites who had persecuted the prophets, & then persecuted the Apostles & believers;

    the spread of the Gospel throughout the world, & persecution of Christians throughout the "amillennium" ;

    a final rebellion before Jesus coming for resurrection & judgment;

    the New Heaven & New Earth.​

    All that needs checking against your posts, & Scriptures. I will need to set it up in my word processor.

    The idea that a new temporary millennial dispensation is needed for the fulfilment of promises & prophecies that are declared to be eternal & are not fulfilled by Christ in the Gospel age & the NH&NE is highly questionable.

    As of course the idea that those prophecies will not have a recognisable fulfilment in time is highly questionable to you.
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    When will the resurrection of the saints happen then? And when will there be a time when no more wars, famines, diseases, as that will happen here when Messiah reigns!
     
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    And thank you, Covenanter, for the gracious response. This issue is one that has a habit of stirring up emotions.


    And one of the key elements in the restoration of Israel is that she be saved, as a Nation, just as God said she would. Paul speaks of this as well:


    Romans 11:25-27
    King James Version (KJV)

    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.



    Israel, as a Nation, is promised by God, Who keeps His promises, to be brought into the New Covenant. Here Paul still portrays this event as yet future.
    This is a "mystery" for Israel, just as the Gospel of Christ was itself a Mystery not revealed to men in Ages past. They are still awaiting the fulfillment of God's promise to them.


    We have not received the Promise of Restoration as the Church, we have received the promise of Eternal Inheritance. The Church (and I know many object to this, but it is true nonetheless) is a unique Body not found prior to Pentecost. The Gospel of Christ is the only through which men can be forgiven their sins, born again, and reconciled to God through Eternal Union which takes place when we are baptized into Christ, or, immersed into God. This is taught by Christ to be a future event which will not take place until after He departs (John 14:20, 16:7) and we see that on the very day of Ascension, Christ tells the disciples to wait in Jerusalem for the Promise of the Father, which they had heard from Him (Acts 1:4), which He defines as being the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, which they will receive not many days hence.

    All that to say that while there are Jews in the Body of Christ, this has not abrogated God's promises to Israel, which again, Paul shows still holds a future fulfillment.

    The reason "...all Israel will be saved" is because only those who are born again will enter into the Millennial Kingdom. When Israel is restored in the Kingdom, it will have only born again believing Jews in her, thus shall "...all Israel be saved."


    The believers were delivered? Many died horrible deaths.


    All suffered, believing and unbelieving alike. It is odd to think that the persecution, which was a result of an intense hatred for Christians, was God's means of "delivering."


    Prophecy often has multiple fullfilments, such as Christ coming...twice, and both comings consistent with Prophecy and not detracting from it in the least.

    I would be curious to know what Prophecy you see in the Old Testament that speaks of Gentiles and Jews being born again and being one man...suffering persecution.


    Continued...
     
  12. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    We see two "rebellions" in Scripture, or, at least, two judgments against unbelievers:


    Revelation 19:17-21
    King James Version (KJV)

    17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

    18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

    19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


    ...and...



    Revelation 20:7-9
    King James Version (KJV)

    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.



    In the first battle of Revelation 19 we see the Return of Christ, then the establishing of the Kingdom. There is a physical earth yet remaining. In the second, the unbelievers from the living are destroyed, and this Universe comes to an end:



    Revelation 20:11
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.




    Follows the second rebellion led by Satan.


    Awesome, let me know how that comes out.


    I don't see it as a "new dispensation," because the elements of the New Covenant will be identical, the only difference being, in that Age we will see Israel restored and living according to their heritage.

    Think of it like this, Covenanter: when God created man He had an intent for him which will not be realized until the Eternal State. Similarly, though not precisely identical, when God created Israel He ha a specific intent for her as well. One example of Israel performing as God chooses is that as originally intended, God is the King. Israel clamored for a King like other nations instead of revering their True King. In the Millennial Kingdom, that will be the case.

    But again, we will see the same elements that we see today, such as men in need of being born again. The born again believers that enter into that Kingdom (the Sheep of Matthew 25) will have children, and they are the ones we see aligning with Satan in the final battle (if you can call it that, lol).

    And that goes back to the topic of the OP, in which we ask, if the Church is raptured at the end of the Tribulation, and the unbelieving population is destroyed (Matthew 25), how can the Final Battle take place, because glorified Saints do not, as far as we know, produce offspring. And even if they did, would we consider them to have physical descendants? The point being, the born again believers who enter the Kingdom according to Christ's teaching, that is, born again believers, will produce the offspring that rebels against God and is destroyed in the Final Battle. This could not occur if all believers are raptured, and that is how Paul taught the Rapture, that all believers, alive and dead, are resurrected at the time of the Rapture.


    Well, I will say, based on how Scripture has been fulfilled so far, that I do not presume to know all the ins and outs, lol. Just as Christ's coming in Prophecy was shrouded in Mystery and men were not made to understand that He would die in their stead as sinners, return to Heaven, and return a second time, even so it is likely that there is that which is still mystery even to us.

    Millennial Sacrifice is a curious issue, and the primary point I wish to make in that discussion is to distinguish between the Sacrifice of Christ and vicarious death of animal sacrifice, and this to stress that no other sacrifice other than that of Christ has salvific quality. In other words, men were not saved through them in the Old Testament, under the Economies of prior Covenants, so there is no reason to ascribe such a quality to them in the Millennial Kingdom.


    God bless.
     
  13. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    The saints will be resurrected on the last day, according to the words of Jesus,.
    • John 6:39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    • John 6:40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    • John 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    • John 6:54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    Jesus must have preached that often, although no other times are mentioned, as Martha said
    • John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    At His second coming, which was not in AD 70, correct?
     
  15. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    Since the last day is also judgement day, hardly.
    • John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Well. the full blown Pretierist see it as the same!
     
  17. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    So does the scripture
     
  18. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    If there is a "first resurrection" then there must be another.

    HankD
     
  19. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    Revelation is a book given by signs. Rev 1:1.
     
  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Not totally.

    HankD
     
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