rapture questions

billwald is a troll that for some reason is allowed to stay on the board. With some of the outlandish things he posts I wonder why he has never been banished.

 

I very seldom joke but when I do it should be obvious to most literate people. Especially when I add "<G>." <G>

Every list needs at least one troll. It would be a dull list if everyone agreed with the list owners, even pointless. I call it "stirring the pot." It is very hard to properly stir a pot of "true believers" (see 'The True Believer,' Eric Hoffer) without being excommunicated.

 

GE:

SMM, I ask out of pure curiosity, are you trying to tell us the 'who' who restrains the 'man of lawlessness' is the United States or the people / Christians of that country?

 

No absolutely NOT!

I believe all Christians TOGETHER are the Salt that preserves.

Having said that, the preservative required appears to be much stronger than salt.

That is why I lean towards the Holy Spirit within ALL Christians being what is holding the antichrist back.

On a side note:

I would love to see the US have a mighty last days revival and have the reason the Eagle doesn't fly in the end times be because too many American Christians were taken out by the Upper-Taker.

But, with all the self-sufficiency and materialism the "church" appears to be afflicted with. I am slowly losing hope for revival of the magnitude for God to Heal or Land.

 

GE:

How is the Holy Spirit taken out of the way?!

You know, you may be right! I have never thought of it, the Holy Spirit withdrawn from men in every way it before worked in the wicked even to restrain them from and in evil-doing!
So, not so much "the Holy Spirit within all CHRISTIANS", but rather the Holy Spirit taken out of the way in the wicked allowing them free passage to act 'antichrist'.

 

The one "hesittation there is, is that if we have not the Spirit we aren't His...

Now if I could just find that verse!

It is usually used by those in Pentecostal Cults that espouse you *have* to speak in tongues to be saved.

And, I do not believe that, so I haven't proof-texted that particular verse.

But, it does seem appropriate, to me that, initially, if we believe in the Rapture that for a while when all true believers are caught up, that there won't be an active Presence of the Holy Spirit on Earth.

At least not until those that failed to believe when the time was right, start crying out to God.

At which time, if we believe that people will still believe and be saved during the Tribulation, the Holy Spirit would return and be active, again.

I don't think any of us have the final and definitive word on the End Times.

Which is why I always come back to the neccesity of being Ready Always, no matter how it or what transpires.

 

In your 1Cor 15 text above - Paul says it happens at the 2nd coming.

In Rev 20:4-5 John says that the "First resurrection" takes place at the 2nd coming.

In 1Thess 4 Paul says that the great trumpet call that wakes the dead happens at the 2nd coming.

In John 14:1-4 Christ promises the 2nd coming "I will come AGAIN and receive you to myself in order that WHERE I am THERE you may be also".

in Christ,

Bob
======================================
John 8:32 "The Truth shall make you free"

 

I don't believe in your 'rapture'-story.

I believe in Christ's Second Coming and the 'general resurrection of all'.

I believe the 'old time religion' not nineteenth-century novelties and inventions.

 

The Bible says "AFTER the tribulation of those days ... he will gather His elect from the four corners of the earth" Matt 24.

The rapture of 1Thess 4 includes the resurrection of the saints.

The resurrection of the saints is seen in Rev 20 and is called the "First resurrection" it takes place following the Rev 19 second coming event.

It is at that point that the promise of Christ in John 14 is fulfilled "I will come AGAIN and receive you to myself" taking us to heaven.

in Christ,

Bob

 

GE:

Not true.

 

GE:

“The tribulation of those days” are these: 24:15 to 26.
“Those days” BEGIN: “When ye shall see the abomination of desolation stand in the temple (in Jerusalem)”. “In those days” it will be “woe to them that give suck” 19, and to them who flee from the ‘abomination of desolation’ the Roman armies “in Judea”, 21“FOR THEN shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world … nor EVER (after) shall be again.” 23“Were it not _THOSE_ days lasted not too long, no one would have survived.” 23“THEN if any man would tell you, Come look, the Christ! Or, There! Don’t believe him!

25“Don’t say I haven’t warned you in time! / I have told you BEFORE (it happens) … There shall arise false Christs and false prophets (who) will show great signs and wonders … If they would tell you, Come see, he is in the desert, don’t go there! Or, He is in secret chambers, don’t believe them! (“The coming of the Son of Man” won’t happen like that!) 27“But as the lightning… (and) 28 the vultures

29 “Then immediately after _THOSE_ days’ tribulation …”, when “30_THEN_ shall appear the sign of Man in heaven … COMING in the clouds with all power and great glory, 31He shall send his angels with great sound of trumpet and they shall gather together His Elect.”

The Son of Man shall "immediately ... send his angels", when "after those days' tribulation" He shall have returned, at once to gather in the Elect from the graves of the dead and from among the remainder of the living.

33 “So likewise you, when you will have seen all these things have happened, know that … the summer…” and the summer harvest or END, “is near— at the door so to speak.” 34“I assure you the end / harvest will be finished in one generation … 37as in Noah’s day.” But BobRyan and co. say no, there follows another 1000 years and even then it’s not the end yet but only the beginning of the end. What nonsense!

There also won’t be another ‘tribulation’ before the end like the one finished 1800 to 2000 years ago already; or Jesus must have lied to his disciples.

When it’s the end, it’s summer-harvest and treading of the wine-press-end: the end of the end-times with the resurrection of all the dead— the end-times that had had begun with the winter-harvest and First Sheaf Offering waved before the LORD— the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ from the dead.

 

Matt 24 predicts "Great tribulation"
21“FOR THEN shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world … nor EVER (after) shall be again.”

The Bible says that AFTER the Tribulation the saints are gathered and taken to heaven.

Matt 24
29 “Then immediately after _THOSE_ days’ tribulation …”, when “30_THEN_ shall appear the sign of Man in heaven … COMING in the clouds with all power and great glory, 31He shall send his angels with great sound of trumpet and they shall gather together His Elect.”

Jesus tells us all to look forwared to that post-trib event "I will come again and receive you to Myself" John 14.

And in Rev 20:4-5 John looks into the future describing the "FIRST RESURRECTION" (John's name for it) - which is the resurrection of the saints.

And in Rev 19 John has just described the second coming event (by all Christian standards).

Thus in 1Thess 4 says that the promised appearing of Christ "The dead in Christ will rise FIRST".

in Christ,

Bob

 

GE:

Yes; Matt 24 predicts "Great tribulation"
21“FOR THEN shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world … nor EVER (after) shall be again.”

Yes, that says what it says.


No; “The Bible says that AFTER the Tribulation the saints are gathered and taken to heaven” is the Bible wangled. The Son of Man shall "immediately ... send his angels", when "after those days' tribulation" He shall have returned, at once to gather in the Elect from the graves of the dead and from among the remainder of the living.

Besides having included the first unrepeatable tribulation THE WHOLE ERA before Christ’s second coming is one of great tribulation.

So, yes, Matt 24:29 “Then immediately after _THOSE_ days’ tribulation …”, when “30_THEN_ shall appear the sign of Man in heaven … COMING in the clouds with all power and great glory, 31He shall send his angels with great sound of trumpet and they shall gather together His Elect.”

What’s your problem?

Yes, “Jesus tells us all to look forward to that post-trib event”, but that has nothing to do with HIS OWN ‘pre-trib’ declaration, "I will come again and receive you to Myself" John 14. --- exactly Christ’s word of promise which He KEPT and FULFILLED through having raised from the dead.

Then yes, “in Rev 20:4-5 John looks into the future describing the "FIRST RESURRECTION" (John's name for it)"— in JOHN’S EXACT OWN WORDS: – “which is:the thousand years”.

So again, yes, “…in Rev 19 John has just described the second coming event (by all Christian standards)." Therefore, what is your problem?

This is your problem: “Thus in 1Thess 4 [it] says that the promised appearing of Christ "The dead in Christ will rise FIRST"…” which is a blatantly FALSE and inadmissible irrelevant application of “1Thess 4”!

 

The Bible says "AFTER the tribulation of those days ... he will gather His elect from the four corners of the earth" Matt 24.

The rapture of 1Thess 4 includes the resurrection of the saints.

The resurrection of the saints is seen in Rev 20 and is called the "First resurrection" it takes place following the Rev 19 second coming event.

It is at that point that the promise of Christ in John 14 is fulfilled "I will come AGAIN and receive you to myself" taking us to heaven.

---

In Acts 1 The disciples ask the very odd question that GE proposes - they ask if it is true that at his resurrection that NOW the John 14 promise of the 2nd coming is to be fulfilled.

Jesus said "no".

Jesus tells them that it will come at a future point in time and that they would not know the exact time during the years they were to live out in the first century A.D.

And indeed they did not.

In 2Thess 2 Paul says not to be deceived by anyone claiming that the great promise of Christ (and focus of the church) in John 14 -- the 2nd coming has happened already.

in Christ,

Bob

 

GE:

Re: BR, “The Bible says "AFTER the tribulation of those days ... he will gather His elect from the four corners of the earth" Matt 24.”

GE:
Ja; that’s what it says.

Re: BR, “The rapture of 1Thess 4 includes the resurrection of the saints.”

GE:
Yes; it does. No! it does not! There is no such words as "the rapture"!

Re: BR, “The resurrection of the saints is seen in Rev 20 and is called the "First resurrection"…”

GE:
Yes. The saints’ ‘spiritual’ resurrection BECAUSE all the fore-going of the context identifies ‘the resurrection of the saints’ as the saints’ ‘tribulation’— but also “reign with Christ” on “thrones” of spiritual victory.

Then also the saints’ ‘spiritual’ resurrection is meant with “first resurrection” BECAUSE all the following in context, identifies: “The First Resurrection: THIS (is) the Thousand Years” of the saints’ SPIRITUAL “reign with Christ … thousand years”.

“The First Resurrection: THIS (is) the Thousand Years” does NOT “take place following the Rev 19 second coming event.” Yes, contextually it does; and contextually this very “second coming event” also FOLLOWS “the First Resurrection THIS the Thousand Years” in from 20:7 to 15.

The parts of the Revelation must be seen in the WHOLE context of the Revelation, which CLEARLY is built up of ‘parallel’ or ‘balanced opposite’ sections, which results in the SAME subject being viewed from different perspectives in the CHIASMIC structure of the Revelation. This is not an ‘academic explanation’ only; it is essential of the Revelation, to deny is impossible.

Re: BR, “It is at that point that the promise of Christ in John 14 is fulfilled "I will come AGAIN and receive you to myself" taking us to heaven.”

GE:
“I will come AGAIN and receive you to myself” --- but --- “taking us to heaven”?? Ridiculous!

Re: BR, “In Acts 1 The disciples ask the very odd question that GE proposes - they ask if it is true that at his resurrection that NOW the John 14 promise of the 2nd coming is to be fulfilled.
Jesus said "no".”

GE:
Denied! This is what BR avers -- falsely once again -- the disciples asked. It is BR who -- falsely -- claims “the John 14 promise” is the promise “of the 2nd coming”.

John 14 is the continuation of Jesus’ conversation with his disciples in the garden of Gethsemane in DIRECT ANSWER to Peter’s question, “Lord, why cannot I follow Thee NOW? I will lay down my life for Thy sake!” Here Jesus tells his disciples and the unbelieving Thomas He is the Way to eternal life --- the Way to His Cross and Resurrection!

Bob Ryan, you know no shame to be able to spin all your biased, assuming, blatant, DIRECT lies against the Scriptures!