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RCC speaks out about Extermination

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by BobRyan, Sep 13, 2003.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Why is it that when I quote the Pope and Cardinals and RC theologians on this topic - NO RC will agree with them OR EVEN provide a cogent reading of the RC historic sources on this topic?

    Why is the only effort - repeated attempt to claim that ("secret files" on) torture and extermination are "a good thing"?

    Surely there is at least one bold, honest Catholic that will step up to the plate and discuss what the Pope so boldly discussed.

    Surely there is at least one that will agree with him.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #21 BobRyan, Sep 23, 2003
  2. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    In your efforts to misdirect - you miss the point. Luther never claimed power over Nobles. There was no "army of Luther". There were no Lutheran "inquisitors" nor even Lutheran "tribunals" nor "secret files" of the Lutherans that are now being opened to discover the full perfidity of the Lutheran states for centuries in the dark ages - as we have for the RCC.

    AND the Lutheran church is "free" to apologize for any offically sanctioned/institutionalized crimes of the past. Such an apology would only enhance their standing as a Christian organization. We might "condemn" them if they held all this in "secret files" or "forbidden documents" or if they burned the Bible or forbade the common man to read it in his own language - but none of this was done.

    So they are free to apologize for any "institutionalized" misconduct. But during the life of Luther - we have the HIGHT of Catholic power in Europe. "Claiming" that Luther had more power than the Catholic Church and its inquisition - is "revisionist history at its best".

    In Christ,

    Bob     </font>[/QUOTE]Many Lutheran synods have condemned and apologized for Luther's diatribes against the rebelling peasants, Jews, etc, even though these private speeches and writings of Luther were never included in the Lutheran Confessions.

    In his Small Catechism, Luther wrote "No one can or should force anyone to believe." This is and always has been the official teaching of the Lutheran Church.

    The Roman Catholic Church should consider rescinding the Papal Bull of Excommunication against Luther. One of the charges was that he taught that it was wrong to burn heretics. This alone should cast doubt on the validity of the Excommunication.
     
    #22 John Gilmore, Sep 24, 2003
  3. Justified Saint

    Justified Saint New Member

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    Bob, if you are interested in talking history, let me know, you only seem to be interested in fufilling your anti-Catholic agenda at this point. I am concerned first with testing your window of (non)truth. I can condemn the Catholic Church all I want for some of its not so Christian acts of the past, yet for the wicked crimes of Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Henery VIII, the English Inquisition, and the hundreds of thousands of "witches" burned at the hands of the Protestants, how can one simply ignore this form of systematic extermination? You only confound the situation by falsely remarking that these crimes do not compare to that of the Catholic Church and the reformers wielded no power and so you justify them and even defend them. It has become clearly apparent to me that the history of ones church should be the window of truth, at least as believed by Protestants. Since Protestants can't win on doctrinial issues, they must resort to attacking the RCC's history while blindly ignoring their own. Luckily for Catholics, our church history and some of its darker times do not compromise the truth for our faith is founded upon God and not the deeds and "triumphs" of the reformers.
     
    #23 Justified Saint, Sep 27, 2003
  4. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    Here's some history,

    Some of these errors we have decided to include in the present document; their substance is as follows. . .That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.
    EXSURGE DOMINE
    Condemning The Errors Of Martin Luther
    Pope Leo X
    June 15, 1520
     
    #24 John Gilmore, Sep 27, 2003
  5. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    Here is a song Luther wrote about two Augustinian monks burned at the stake in 1523:

    1. By help of God I fain would tell
    A new and wondrous story,
    And sing a marvel that befell
    To his great praise and glory.
    At Brussels in the Netherlands
    He hath his banner lifted,
    To show his wonders by the hands
    Of two youths, highly gifted
    With rich and heavenly graces.

    2. One of these youths was called John,
    And Henry was the other;
    Rich in the grace of God was one,
    A Christian true his brother.
    For God's dear Word they shed their blood,
    And from the world departed
    Like bold and pious sons of God;
    Faithful and lion-hearted,
    They won the crown of martyrs.

    5. Their monkish garb from them they take,
    And gown of ordination;
    The youths a cheerful Amen spake,
    And showed no hesitation.
    They thanked their God that by his aid
    They now had been denuded
    Of Satan's mock and masquerade,
    Whereby he had deluded
    The world with false pretences.

    6. Thus by the power of grace they were
    True priests of God's own making,
    Who offered up themselves e'en there,
    Christ's holy orders taking;
    Dead to the world, they cast aside
    Hypocrisy's sour leaven,
    That penitent and justified
    They might go clean to heaven,
    And leave all monkish follies.

    7. They then were told that they must read
    A note which was dictated;
    They straightway wrote their fate and creed,
    And not one jot abated.
    Now mark their heresy! "We must
    In God be firm believers;
    In mortal men not put our trust,
    For they are all deceivers;"
    For this they must be burned!

    8. Two fires were lit; the youths were brought,
    But all were seized with wonder
    To see them set the flames at naught,
    And stood as struck with thunder.
    With joy they came in sight of all,
    And sang aloud God's praises;
    The Sophists' courage waxed small
    Before such wondrous traces
    Of God's almighty finger.
     
    #25 John Gilmore, Sep 29, 2003
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Justified Saint said --
    News flash! Lateran IV IS "history".

    News flash! The Vatican blue ribbon study group quoted here "WAS looking into HISTORY".

    News flash! EWTN's statement that Billy Graham would also have been burned at the stake if he were to teach THEN (in the RCC's dark ages "history) - what he teaches today -- IS a RC statement about "history".

    New Flash! Just because you do not "approve of your own history" does not make it non-history.

    News Flash! Revising history is not as "easy" as it was in the dark ages.

    Oustanding choice! Now "actually do the math". Deal with the details. Deal with the quotes. Deal with the real history and come out with at "least" as much integrity as the Papal blue ribbon study group already quoted here.

    Show a "compelling, objective, credible" response from your POV.

    (Someone tell me why that is so hard to get)

    All I ask is for an objective - realistic response to the history given here - not "dodge after dodge" and excuses for "why I can not think about that for now".

    The RCC ITSELF claims that WHEN the inquisition was in force - and when Lateran IV was being enforce NO OTHER POWER in Europe could measure up to the absolute and total power of the Holy Roman Empire and the Papal states. EVEN in Luther's day the RCC was vastly dominant and all the carping you care to do about that monk - pales into nothingness since his influence was a "rounding error" in the RCC's ledger of centuries of unchallenged domination of all of Europe.

    "Excusing" the RCC by the actions of one german (catholic) monk - is hardly "the credible" response needed here. NOR does it measure up to the RC response ALREADY quoted in that study group.

    Come out of the dark ages. Be bold enough "at least" to join the Papal study group's level of integrity.

    There is NO ability to equivocate.
    #1 those doing the extermination were ALSO Catholic. (And not just in the US)

    #2. Non-Catholic groups (that COULD be traced LIKE the RCC CAN be TRACED to her atrocities) have NO problem admitting to wrong and issuing appologies - SINCE they have no claim to infallability to prop up around historic atrocities.

    Wrong again!!

    I do not justify or defend the unchristian acts of EITHER group. Neither am I so blind as to argue that the Catholic reformers held anything like the absolute control over Europe that the RCC claims EVEN in her own blue ribbon study group.


    Wrong "again"!!

    #1. The non-Catholic view is that the HISTORY of the RCC is in fact PREDICTED in scripture - so ADMITTING to that history is "part of the story".

    #2. The non-Catholic view does not have the "need" to "equivocate" between the atrocities of the Holy Roman Empire AND its papal armies AND the puny efforts of catholic reformers like the monk Martin Luther at the time of the zenith of the RCC's power.

    #3. The non-Catholic view does not have the same "need" to defend the catholic reformers of the dark ages - "as if" every pronouncement of Martin Luther was "infallible".

    #4. The Catholic reformers THEMSELVES proved that the RCC view was doctrinally unsound EVEN in the dark ages. The non-Catholic groups that simply admit and "see" that are doing "nothing new".

    Wrong again!!

    The NON-Catholic view is that the CATHOLIC reformers do NOT have to "defend a policy of infallability". When Luther is anti-semitic non-Catholics have NO problem saying "that was error".

    But when the RCC is slaughtering and "exterminating" her own devotees are "Stuck" becaus they can't admit to "wrong" in the past in a church that is "never supposed to promote error". Neither can Catholics claim that a christian that practices AND commands murders and tortures is not "practicing evil, teaching error in practice and opposed to the gospel".

    (See - stating the "obvious" over and over - is "the mission" when dealing with RC denial on this point)

    Why not just "leave the dark ages"?

    Why not come up to the level of the Pope's own blue ribbon study group? (At the very least). Why be so "married" to darkness, denial and the unchristian models of the RCC in the dark ages?

    (Even to the point of "demonizing the victims" as some RC's have done here).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #26 BobRyan, Oct 1, 2003
  7. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    I am sorry you are blinded, Bob.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
    #27 GraceSaves, Oct 1, 2003
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Join in with the Pope's blue ribbon panel of experts already quoted here - join them in condemning the Catholic atrocities of the dark ages.

    Join them in condemn the "catholic dodge" that tries to sluff blame off onto the civil authorities in the dark ages - "pretending" not to notice that the RCC had absolute control at that time.

    Join that Vatican study group in "leaving the dark ages".

    Join Dr. Carroll of EWTN who asserts with confidence that the perfidity of the catholic church in the dark ages was so "predictable" that he is certain that "Billy Graham would be burned at the stake" in the dark ages by the same RCC that was already doing the deeds that the RC scholars identified in that study group quoted here.

    Come out of the dark ages. Come into the light. OR at LEAST as much light as the Pope and that papal study group was will to entertain.

    Why hide back in the demonizing of the dark ages - (demonizing the RCC's victims) in this age of light and understanding?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #28 BobRyan, Oct 1, 2003
  9. Justified Saint

    Justified Saint New Member

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    Whoa Bob, it doesn't take much to set you off.

    Thanks for proving my point too.

    BTW I didn't know "objective" was in your vocabulary.

    Just let me know when I am supposed to take anything you say seriously.
     
    #29 Justified Saint, Oct 2, 2003
  10. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Slavery preceded the SBC by more than 3000 years.
     
    #30 gb93433, Oct 2, 2003
  11. Justified Saint

    Justified Saint New Member

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    Except slavery in the American South was one of the worst forms in history and completely outdated for its time.
     
    #31 Justified Saint, Oct 2, 2003
  12. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Slavery preceded the SBC by more than 3000 years. </font>[/QUOTE]Aren't Baptists, Baptists, regardless if they are in the SBC convention or not? And unless Baptists date later to slavery, I don't see the point.
     
    #32 GraceSaves, Oct 2, 2003
  13. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    The point he was making was this: tragic_pizza was trying to hold (sarcastically?) the SBC (or Baptists, if you like) responsible for slavery. In order for that to happen there needed to be Baptists around that started slavery. But they weren't, so Baptists can't be held responsible for slavery (the founding of it).

    In Christ,
    Neal
     
    #33 neal4christ, Oct 2, 2003
  14. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Neal,

    Thanks for the clarification.
     
    #34 GraceSaves, Oct 2, 2003
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Our brother - justified saint - finds it appauling that I would ask for Catholics on this board to JOIN WITH the Popes own blue ribbon panel on condemning the atrocities of the "exterminating" practices of the RCC in the dark ages.

    Why is that so offensive to our RC bretheren?

    Why is it that asking them to renounce and turn from the dark ages JUST as that Vatican's research group recommended - is so "painful" to modern Catholics??

    Is there an "objective, compelling, substantive" response available from the Catholics gathered here?

    Still waiting.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #35 BobRyan, Oct 3, 2003
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Many proetestants and Catholics want desperately to "pretend" that the RC position in the modern age is to "Be enlightened" and to "reject the practics of the RCC in the dark ages".

    But instead - EVEN when the Pope's OWN council is turning from those practices - we STILL see slavish devotion to it on boards like this - defense after defense of RC atrocities - INSTEAD of the more Christian and more noble attitude we found in the Pope's own study group looking into this subject.

    Why be so distant from the Pope?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #36 BobRyan, Oct 3, 2003
  17. Justified Saint

    Justified Saint New Member

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    Funny thing is that I haven't made a single remark of defense of the RCC, I haven't even really made a remark about the RCC in the Middle Ages period! I have said, however, quite plainly that there have been certain members of the Church that have committed very unChristian acts yet it is difficult for the Catholic to dwell all their brainpower on the sins committed by men (maybe that is news to you, but yes Christians do sin even Protestants and Evangelicals!) which seems to be the qualifier of non-truth for Protestants. You probably missed that since you selectively read, but you will surely catch it this time. This may be quite foreign to you who has actively defended the crimes of the reformers in everyway possible (minimizing their horror, blaming the Church for their acts, or just plain denying them). This may be another reason why Catholics might be confused with your formula of truth since it focuses on one while actively ignoring and even defending the other. This formula lacks balance and is perplexing to the objective mind.

    I must commend the Catholics who have stayed out of this arguement or at least minimized their input, they have been wise in their decision in avoiding your simple Jack Chick tactics and baiting. I'd foolishly hoped that you would be interested in discussing some of the historical truths of Christianity, but you have yet to show the slighest working knowledge or desire of historical objectivity and balance.
     
    #37 Justified Saint, Oct 3, 2003
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Here is an Outstanding group of Catholics that did not simply "continue to turn a blind eye" to history.

    They are to be commended. (by contrast to the dodge, duck and defend policies you could find among other groups of Catholics on this specific subject)


    Consider the following news stories from Vatican City.

    H

    ow refreshing that there are some Catholics willing to place the atrocities in a distinctively "Christian light" rather than a distinctively partisan light or trying to defend or minimalize monstrous acts of atrocity - or worse - continuing to demonize the victims in "true dark ages" spirit.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #38 BobRyan, Oct 3, 2003
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    That part of Kathryn's post "was" in the spirit of the Pope's blue ribbon panel on this subject. To the extent that she agreed with them - I salute her post.

    But there are "implication" for that history of atrocities in the dark ages..IF you find that the Bible in fact predicted it.

    As an honest Catholic you would "have" to allow yourself to think about it and at the very "least" admit that such atrocities IN a Christian denomination that had absolute domination of all of Europe and the middle east for centuries "might be noticed" by God's prophetic summary of history.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #39 BobRyan, Oct 3, 2003
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    As a response to Justified Saint's claims that the RC positions have not in fact sought to promote and defend policies of the dark ages...

    How many "dodges" And "defenses" do you find in this response to the report about the Pope's research group and the Christian response to atrocities of the dark ages?

    (Parenthetical comments/responses mine)

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #40 BobRyan, Oct 4, 2003
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