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RE: Can a man sin a sin unto death after being born again#2

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Brother Bob, Jul 23, 2007.

  1. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    This one scripture really tells the story about the inward man and outward man.

    Romans 8:
    13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
    14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    (mortify means to bring under subjection), in other words, don't be committing adultery, stealing, killing etc.
     
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    And every time you sin, you call Christ a sinner which is blasphemy. You sin every day Bob, whether you like it or not. You can't even keep the two greatest commandments:
    1. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, all thy soul, and all thy mind.
    2. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

    You cannot keep these two commandments each day. You sin every day. And every day you do that (according to you) you are committing the sin of blasphemy because you are saying that Christ is a sinner. Thus you are worse than the rest of us.
     
  3. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I have no idea what you are saying here, how could I call Christ a sinner, if I sin?

    You accuse me of things, using yourself as measuring rod, which does not work.

    You say I am sinning the sin of blasphemy.

    DHK: you are grabbing at straws, as you begin to sink.
     
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

    Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    You are a sinner. You have sinned. This is not by my standards but by God's standards. He is the one that calls you a sinner. If you deny it you are the one that is calling Christ a liar and admitting that his word is not in you.

    Furthermore because you say that you sin not, and that when a believer such as yourself sins accuses Christ as sinning; then that is exactly what you are doing. That is blasphemy. According to the Bible you blaspheme Christ every day, because you sin every day. I am taking your standard and applying it to what the Bible says about sin and sinners. Blasphemy must be a terrible weight to carry daily.
     
  5. charles_creech78

    charles_creech78 New Member

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    What does this verse mean then ? 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. What is the work of the devil? Explain this but not in man wisdom. Does this mean that you are of God or the devil if you sin?
     
  6. Steven2006

    Steven2006 New Member

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    Brother Bob,

    I thought I would jump back in for a question. I do understand you are not talking about sinless perfection, but just a certain set or type of sins. So basically you have a list of mortal sins, one cannot commit and still be eligible to enter heaven. Regardless if that person has professed Christ or not. I know this is not your wording, but I am trying to sum up what I think you have been saying. Is this in the ball park
     
  7. Steven2006

    Steven2006 New Member

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    I think this was explained already earlier in the thread. It means a lifestyle of sin. Someone that live habitually in sin, cannot be saved. It does not mean, one singular sin.
     
  8. charles_creech78

    charles_creech78 New Member

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    Ok what about this .1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law . It does not say SINS it said SIN.
     
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Satan originally said:
    Isaiah 14:13-14 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

    His motive was to overthrow God, and be God himself. He has never deviated from that goal, and is still deceived into accomplishing that end. He believed that if he could defeat "the work of Christ" on the cross he would be one step closer to attaining his goal.
    Instead, Christ not only finished his work: "It is finished" (John 19:30)
    But he triumphed over sin, death and satan, through his resurrection.
    Thus, all who believe in him, and his work on the cross, and appropriate that work for themselves are born again. They too have become over-comers (see 1John 5:4), but only through the power of Jesus Christ.

    It is true that sin is of the devil in the sense that it began in the garden of Eden when the devil tempted Eve. When Adam sinned, sin passed down to all men. All mankind now has a sin nature and are prone to sin, whether born again or not. We cannot blame sin on the devil. We make our own choice whether or not to sin. When a person loses his temper he does so becauses he chooses to do so. The devil doesn't force him to lose him temper. You can't blame all sin on the devil. "The devil made me do it" excuse doesn't wash. It is not an excuse for sin.
    He that is born of God does not commit sin, in the Greek language is in the present continuous tense, and means does not continue to commit sin. In other words it is speaking of a particular sinful lifestyle. It is not speaking of one single solitary sin.
     
  10. Mr.M

    Mr.M New Member

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    When human behavior/human righteousness enters into someone's equation regarding whether a person is or is not saved they are at the door of rejecting the righteousness of Christ as the only means of salvation.

    A saved man or woman or both, whether in a foul mood, busy complaining, in the midst of adultery, in the midst of being unkind or whatever sin you name and then dies by means of being struck by lightening or any other means, enter into glory.

    The truth is the sinful nature of man is attracted to his works. And in this case this scenario or any other scenario is just an appeal to the sinful lust for human righteousness as a means of judging whether someone is saved or not.

    What must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

    The sin unto death is simply the last cycle of divine discipline in the life of a believer. In fact ONLY a believer can commit the sin unto death as described 1 John 5:16.
     
  11. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Amen to that.
     
  12. Steven2006

    Steven2006 New Member

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    Charles,

    I am not a scholar, but here is a little that I have learned by reading on this subject that you might find interesting. The way I understand it there were two types of erroneous doctrines were being put forth. antinomianism and perfectionism. Antinomianism basically said that man was not held accountable for to any moral law. He only had to believe he was justified. Perfectionism, basically believed in the sin nature was eradicated. Much of what John wrote in 1John was to show the errors in both of these doctrines. That is why one the surface it appears to almost contradict at times.

    "My little children I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;" 1 John 2:1

    Poof there goes perfectionism

    "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9

    Poof there goes antinomianism

    Note John does not say "he cannot commit an act of sin", but rather "he cannot sin". And they way I understand from any Greek expert I have read, the tense of the words and how they are used, it means to practice sin habitually. It is not talking about one act of sin.

    I hope this helps a little bit.
     
    #92 Steven2006, Jul 27, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2007
  13. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    1Jo 5:18¶We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

    what about the other scripture that say he cannot sin?
     
  14. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    We don't need opinions, we need scripture. My opinion is as good as yours and I do not believe someone in the act of adultery when they die goes to Glory. I think that is hogwash.
     
    #94 Brother Bob, Jul 27, 2007
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  15. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    Or was John blaspheming the Lord with verse 3:9?


    You must of forgot this one DHK; I will put it in for you.
     
  16. charles_creech78

    charles_creech78 New Member

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    This cannot be for that believer . It does not say that he commited a sin unto death. 1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother SIN a SIN WHICH IS NOT UNTO DEATH, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that SIN NOT UNTO DEATH. There is a sin unto death: I do not say he shall prey for it. All unrighteousness is SIN: and there is a sin NOT UNTO DEATH. Sin is Sin. unrighteousness is unrighteousness. We know that whosoever is BORN OF GOD SINNETH NOT; but he that is BEGOTTEN OF GOD KEEPETH himself, AND THAT WICKED ONE TOUCHETH HIM NOT. That last vers. say that wicked one toucheth him not. It does not say that believer sin a sin unto death. You said it is decribed in 1 john that a believer can sin this sin unto death it does not say that. It also says again that he sinneth not. I thank that you are telling A LIE. I will tell you what you are trieing to tell me . That if you sin God will take your life from of this earth and take you home. I will tell you what I am tring to say. If you die in your SIN where Chrict is you cannot Go. I believe a Christain can sin because in 1 John it say we can vers 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. I do thank what he meant in 1 John chapter 5:16 That a Christain can sin a sin NOT UNTO DEATH. But he cannot sin a sin unto death. We all are going to die a natural death. If you are born again or not you are going to die. But I do not thank you will understand this if you fill like you can do a sin like this and still go to heaven.
     
  17. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    1Jo 5:16If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

    1Jo 5:17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

    1Jo 5:18¶We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (means inward man that is "born again", outward man is not born again for he has to die, he will not receive his change until the resurrection.) Every man know he has to die the natural death.

    This is what I am saying Steven2006!

    I believe you to be sincere in wanting to know what I am saying, so I am trying my best to say it in a way you will under stand.
    Could I ask you where did you get this "habitual sin" and put it in where scripture says " sin not"?
     
    #97 Brother Bob, Jul 27, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2007
  18. charles_creech78

    charles_creech78 New Member

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    Amen Brother Bob.
     
  19. Mr.M

    Mr.M New Member

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    I am sorry the passage is has caused such a stumble for you. I suppose the King James may be a bit confusing, the NIV (I am not a great fan of it but here it does not violate of the Greek) reads:

    "16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that."

    So first he is talking about a "brother" so obviously that means a brother in the Lord, another Christian i.e. believer. Then he recognizes he may commit a sin that does not lead to death. So here we have a brother that John writes about that someone might see committing a sin NOT unto death. What should he do when he sees this? John says, pray that God will give him life. Well if it isn't unto death then whey pray that God give him life. Because the person seeing it does not know actually whether it is or isn't but that it didn't result in death and hence pray that they are not disciplined with death. But then he says he is referring to those whose sin does not lead to death but makes clear "there is a sin that leads to death". Never changing the context and about whom he is writing, John is still talking about none other than, a "brother". And a brother is a fellow believer. Hence, a believer is the ONLY person that can in this context commit a sin "unto" or "that leads to" death. Why? Because of course death is the final stage of divine discipline in the life of the believer. But contextually it is quite clear a "brother" is being addressed and he can commit both the sin not unto death and the sin unto death. John isn't addressing non-believers here and that is quite clear.
     
  20. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Jhn 8:21¶Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

    Well, if a believer can sin a sin unto death and you call it final stage of dicipline, and if a believer does die this way, with a unrepentant sin, Hell will be his home.

    Read on down just two more little verses! It won't take much of your time.

    1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

    1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
     
    #100 Brother Bob, Jul 27, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2007
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