Featured Re spirits in Prison and the common view

But I'm not contradicting the Bible, I'm contradicting Catholic premises the Reformers should have contradicted. They did a great job on Grace, a lousy job on Hell.

As a former Hell fire teacher ---I was diluting our LORD Jesus' teaching about Gehenna.

Lazarus was in Torments in Hades but Hades is a vacation compared PHYSICAL TORMENTS in Gehenna.

Hades will be emptied out and cast into the lake of fire, meaning its temporary...not the place of eternal torment. Eternal torment happens in the Lake of fire, also known as Gehenna, a furnace of fire:

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(Rev 20:13-14 KJV)

Gehenna or lake of fire is the permanent place of ETERNAL TORMENT for all who did eternal sins and it is much much worse than Hades.

Compared to Gehenna of fire----where the wicked are imprisoned in contemptible flesh (Dan 12:2) animated corpses (Isa 66:24) that are bound hand and foot (Mat 22:13) so they can't move to lessen the intense physical pain like unto fire and a corrupting worm, causing them to uncontrollably weep and gnash their teeth (Mark 9:42-48)----a stint in Hades is like being on vacation, Dives was able to talk, think…interact with others.

So classic hell fire preaching is watering down Christ's teaching about Gehenna.

Christ spoke more about Gehenna than he did about Heaven or Hades, and He said we should fear God--- not because he casts into Hades, but because casts into Gehenna body and soul:

He raises the dead in animated corpses that imprison the souls communicating the Terrible Wrath of an Offended Holy God---as pain like unto a corrupting worm; as fire that can't be quenched...

so the souls trapped within them can only weep, and gnash their teeth....if the pain allows them to think at all about other things, if they looked back to their time in Hades, they would long for its embrace...

YLT Matthew 5:22 but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.
29 'But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.
YLT Matthew 5:30 'And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.
YLT Matthew 10:28 'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
YLT Matthew 18:9 'And if thine eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee; it is good for thee one-eyed to enter into the life, rather than having two eyes to be cast to the gehenna of the fire.
YLT Matthew 23:15 'Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye go round the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and whenever it may happen -- ye make him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves.
YLT Matthew 23:33 'Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?
YLT Mark 9:43 'And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
YLT Mark 9:45 'And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
YLT Mark 9:47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --
YLT Luke 12:5 but I will show to you, whom ye may fear; Fear him who, after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna; yes, I say to you, Fear ye Him.
YLT James 3:6 and the tongue is a fire, the world of the unrighteousness, so the tongue is set in our members, which is spotting our whole body, and is setting on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by the gehenna.

So all the church has watered down the teaching of Jesus Christ and is liable.

I want to make sure when He comes, I'm not also guilty of watering down His solemn warnings about Gehenna of fire, a place far worse than anything in Dante's Inferno.

The horror of Gehenna is great God created Hades hoping to convince some of those on the broad way into destruction, that perhaps accepting God's offer of salvation is best.




I'm a little busy right now with my business and other chores, I will treat the rest of your post when I can.


10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (Mat 3:10 KJV)

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Act 17:30-31 KJV)

 

Its not acceptable Gerhard Vos make a claim and then depart without giving reasons for the claim.

I say they are the same. So my claim cancels his out..

Unlike Vos I can prove my claim.

Both Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are said to be the final place for the wicked and you can't have two different "final" places.

Therefore they must be the same place with different names, like how we are known by more than one name.

Moreover, Gehenna and the Lake of Fire must be the same BECAUSE what is said about Gehenna is said about the Lake of fire, and what is said about both of them is not true about Hades.


For example:

Hades is a place where souls go immediately upon physical death. Unbelievers suffer torments therein UNTIL the Resurrection, when Hades is emptied of its souls:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:13-14 NKJ)

Therefore, according to Jesus Hades cannot be Gehenna because its fires cease tormenting the wicked when they are raised up out of it:

47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --
48 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched; (Mar 9:47-48 YLT)

Hades cannot be Gehenna according to Jesus because only souls are in Hades (Luke 16:23) but in Gehenna both body and soul is there (Matt 10:28).

'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna. (Mat 10:28 YLT)


While Hades is where unbelievers go upon death, the lake of fire is where souls that were rejoined to their bodies go, after they are judged. The same is true for Gehenna:

'Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna? (Mat 23:33 YLT)

Unlike Hades which is emptied of inhabitants and cast into the lake of fire, ending any Hades Torment of the wicked---the wicked suffer PHYSICALLY in Gehenna forever:

43 'And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
44 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
45 'And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
46 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --
48 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched;
(Mar 9:43-48 YLT)

As there is only 1 place where the wicked will be eternally tormented, Gehenna is also called the Lake of fire.


That Gehenna is another name for the lake of fire is evident by its symbolizing a garbage dump whose fires never are quenched, outside the city of God.

"And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isa 66:24 NKJ)

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. (Rev 22:14-15 NKJ)

Therefore it is elementary deduction Gehenna and Hades are too dissimilar to be the same place.

Its time the Reformation go all the way back to Christ and His apostles, and adopt their beliefs about Hell and Judgment Day.

People tend to forget the Reformers were good Catholics, until they weren't.

While the valiantly struggled to recapture the teaching of the primitive church, they failed when it came to eschatology. They simply modified Catholic belief by (rightly) dumping purgatory and prayers to the saints. But the same pagan Dante's Inferno they essentially kept, and it diminishes the teaching of Christ regarding Gehenna.

It was Him who could toss into Gehenna that we should fear, not Him who tosses into Hades.

It is written:

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deu 4:2 KJV)

Claiming Hades is Gehenna is diminishing the Word of God for the traditions of men. All the church is liable save the first century...thereafter novelties were accepted as truth by a Greek speaking church that didn't understand the Jewish concepts Christ and His apostles never contradicted.

Its time Reformers reform all the way back to Christ and His apostles...Catholic eschatology is so confused it requires a magisterium to keep the errors from collapsing the entire construct.

 

Incorrect, the "Lake of fire" also occurs 2x in Rev 19:20.

BUT I notice Gehenna appears 12x, Matt. 5:22, 29-30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mk. 9:43, 45, 47; Lk. 12:5; Jas. 3:6 against the 6x "Lake of Fire" appearances.

AND the Gospels are PROSE, that is, written like "newspapers of record," where eyewitness testimony is communicated to the reader so figurative or symbolic language is kept to a minimum while the book of Revelation is full of symbolism, figurative language.

So the facts you cite work against your argument.

I'm not alone:

He used Gehenna to figuratively describe what the final doom of those who would reject Christ would be.

Now you confuse me, if Christ used Gehenna to describe the final doom, then He used it synonymously with the Lake of Fire, meaning they are the same place.

To illustrate, I could use "New York City" to figuratively refer to all in New York City or use the synonym "The Big Apple"….what this means it’s the same place, just two different names.

Incorrect, I cited hades being cast into the lake of fire as as proving Hades cannot be the eternal place where the wicked are punished, for it is emptied of all its inhabitants just prior to being cast into the lake of fire.

Both the Lake of Fire AND Gehenna are said to be the place of everlasting punishment of the wicked…as the wicked aren't going to be in two places at once, Gehenna and Lake of Fire must be the same place, just called two different names.

In the prose writing of the gospels, its known as Gehenna because that communicates it’s the garbage dump of rejected humanity, but in the symbolic book of Revelation it’s the "lake of fire" because it communicates the kind of pain that will be felt therein, fire that covers the flesh like water.

Yes, figures of speech exist in this parable, but its expressly stated the rich man was out of his body…he was buried first and then in Hades he was in torment.

Therefore it is "natural" we see the reference to a "tongue" as figurative, not literal.

THAT is unlike Christ warning we should fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. That's not figurative at all.

AND why is God's power more? If Gehenna is Hades then both Satan and man can kill just like God, meaning Jesus is incorrect...we should fear all three.

ONLY if Gehenna is NOT Hades, ONLY if God's Destroying BOTH body and soul in Gehenna is far worse than being tormented in Hades until the Resurrection....does Christ's warning make sense.

Therefore Christ did not believe Gehenna was Hades by another name.

Hades is emptied out, then cast into the lake of fire. Then all not in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. You argue because they both end up in the same place (Lake of fire), Hades is the Lake of fire?

Lets illustrate the logic of your argument to see if it still makes sense:

A box of toy soldiers is emptied out and cast into the lake; Then the box is cast into the lake. Therefore as they both end up in the same place, the box is the lake.

Sorry, the logic doesn't work.

The torment is NOT the same, Hades torments souls after they are buried, both Gehenna and Lake of Fire torments BODY and SOUL after they are resurrected from Hades, to stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ.

While Dives could discuss things with Abraham, that doesn't seem possible for someone weeping and gnashing their teeth as they lay in fire that feels like a lake around their body.

Therefore Hades is NOT the Lake of Fire or Gehenna.

I must defend myself, never said Jesus didn't have complete command of the language:

In Christ all things consist and have their being:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (Col 1:17 KJV)

Therefore the infinite God the Eternal Son has no limits.

But Christ didn't say Dives was afflicted with worms and gnashed his teeth, He says that is true of those in Gehenna…therefore Hades is not Gehenna.

Hades is emptied out, then cast into the lake of fire. Then all not in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. You argue because they both end up in the same place (Lake of fire), Hades is the Lake of fire?

Lets illustrate the logic of your argument to see if it still makes sense:

A box of toy soldiers is emptied out and cast into the lake; Then the box is cast into the lake. Therefore as they both end up in the same place, the box is the lake.

Sorry, the logic doesn't work.

Ok, so you connect to the Anabaptists, and not the reformers. Sorry for the mistake.

The entire church disagrees with each other on everything…so if I'm weird…got lots of company.

I wasn't pointing fingers, I made a true statement about the Reformers. They were good men. They left the Catholic church because of the abuses. But you don't leave your lifelong church and discard everything it taught, easily…I suggest Catholic "Dante's Inferno" views about hell, which are popular in our culture today---are not what Christ and His apostles taught and I am ready to prove my claim, with scripture.

That's not pointing fingers….its always being "ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed." (1Pe 3:15 NKJ)