Featured Reaching Born-Again Homosexuals!

I am not going to outright disagree with you, as I am not clear on what exactly you mean by "condition". If by that, you mean that they are born that way, then I disagree wholeheartedly. If by "condition", you mean it in the same way that alcoholism or drug addiction is a "condition", then yes, I'll agree.

Many homosexuals (that I've talked to, anyway. Can't speak for the whole group. And to be fair, I've only talked to about 5 or 6 on a personal level.) didn't start off being a homosexual. Some just never felt an attraction for women, and assumed that they were homosexual. Others (the majority that I know of) got caught up in a sexual lifestyle that failed to fulfill their fleshly "needs" anymore, so they turned to more and more base acts. Eventually they became addicted to homosexuality, much like a drug addict becomes addicted.

I unapologetically hold that no one is "born gay", much like no one is a "born alcoholic". Granted, some people have a propensity to different sins. For instance, I've never even been tempted to become an alcoholic. Some people fall for different sins, the 'besetting sin'. Homosexuals' 'besetting sin' is homosexuality. It doesn't mean that they are born that way, it just means that this is the sin that Satan can get them with.

Can an alcoholic get saved? Can a murderer get saved? Can a liar get saved? Of course, the answer in all of these situations is yes. In the same way, homosexuals can get saved. But they will live with their addiction their whole lives, and have to battle it on a daily basis. If they fall, it doesn't mean that they weren't saved, it means that they gave in to temptation. If they never change from their lifestyle, then I would have a hard time believing that they ever got saved.

However, I don't believe as some do that living in sin is a sign that you aren't saved. Living in sin without regrets or chastizement is, I believe. If a Christian lives in sin, they are going to have the Holy Spirit making them feel bad about it. That's the true mark of being saved. It's the same whether the sin is homosexuality, drunkenness, pornography, or any other sin you can name.

 

It sounds like you have bought the lie just like Eve. Homosexuality is chosen lifestyle. No one has to commit homosexuality. There is no such thing as a homosexual Christian. You need to read 1Cor 6.
Also it is not being judgmental to expose sin. You seem to work for the enemy more then the Lord. You seem to want to hinder the work of the Lord not carry it out.
2Tim 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
I think you need to decide who you want to follow, because in what you have posted making excuses for sin and trying to stop the exposing of it you are standing against the Lord.

 

The Lord and His word agress with everthing you said except the last part about living in sin.
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

The way is narrow and straight, not broad and crooked.

 

Every temptation we have is due to our own making.
James 1:14
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

The problem is that many do not want to let go of those temptations so they persist while the person tries to not carry them out in the physical. God says we are to do this.
Romans 12:12
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Eph 6:10
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

 

So NONE who is in drinking/drugging/fonicating/gayness etc can/will be saved unless totally stop doing that act first?

 

Yes, butr can't a gay person i9n this case stills truggle with temptations, maybbe even 'slip up"?

 

Just believe what is written instead of the lies men teach.
1John 3:9
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

1Cor 6:9-11a
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you

 

Yes a person who has been a homosexual could still battle with the temptation and slip to it on an occasion, but if they obey scripture that will also pass.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Eph 6:10
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

 

So are you saying truely saved persons who were in gay or other vices will stop sinning totally or not?

 

Yessir, the latter is what I meant. I share your belief that no one is "born that way." The condition may be the result of sexual addiction gone to that particular extreme, or of childhood sexual abuse, or who knows what. But it is not in the DNA of any human to mate with a member of one's own gender.

We fully agree then.

All I'm trying to say is that we need to stop communicating the idea that homosexual temptation to commit sodomy is somehow more abominable than heterosexual temptation to fornicate or commit adultery.

If someone is battling that particular addiction, they should not be told, as I have read in the testimonies of several gay believers, that getting married to a member of the opposite sex can "fix it." Once a person has become an alcoholic, one single sip of wine can undo years of sobriety in a moment! The same is true for most other addictions, including sexual addiction.

In many cases I think homosexuality is the result of reprobation. In a situation where one has hardened his heart to the point that God has "turned him over to a reprobate mind (Romans 1:24f)." But certainly that is not true for every struggling homosexual. The reprobate won't come to us asking for help in overcoming sin and following Christ! Homosexuals who are seeking to follow Christ, and those who became homosexual for reasons other than reprobation should be received with the same humility and grace that we would show to any other addict.

@ freeatlast, who wrote:

So quick to judge without having all the facts! You have offered a great example of the very attitude I'm encouraging believers to avoid. Let's hear one another out respectfully and humbly, without jumping to such sweeping conclusions prematurely. I'm not advocating homosexuality. I'm not saying they are "born that way." And even if they are, it won't shake my faith if they discover some "gay gene" or whatever. It will simply be further proof of what the scriptures say, that men are desperately wicked and totally depraved. All I'm say'n here is that if we are trying to reach out to sinners with the love of Christ, we need to be consistent, not discriminatory.

Let me offer an example. Suppose I decide that so-and-so over there would make a really good Christian, so I decide to share the gospel with him on that basis. But that other guy, well, I don't think he would make a very good Christian (or, "I wouldn't want him in my church"), so I let the opportunity to share my faith go by.

That is another example of the discriminatory attitude I am warning my fellow believers against. That's all I'm trying to say. Sheesh.


-Robin

 

Just believe what is written instead of the lies men teach.
1John 3:9
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

1Cor 6:9-11a
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you

 

There are a few things to remember in this discussion:

First, God saves us as we are. We don't have to get cleaned up in order to be saved, we get saved and then clean up as the Holy Spirit leads.

Second, turning from a particular sin is not a requirement for salvation. Before I get blasted for this statement, let me explain: Repentance from sin needs to be present in order for salvation. But, that repentance is a general "I have sinned, and now repent of my sins" kind of thing, sort of an all-inclusive repentance. The homosexual (or insert any sin) might honestly believe at the time that what they are doing is not sin. But, once they have the Holy Spirit to guide them (with the helpful prodding of other born again Christians), they will soon learn what is sin and what is not. They are a transformed creature, and will come to know these things. They will no longer have the joy in commiting these acts, and will be torn up about it if they commit them.

Thirdly, as with any sin, they will need time to overcome them. Going from practicing sin to complete abstinence of that sin is hard. They will be tempted. They might even fall, as with any sin. If they continue in that sin, then they would have a hard time convincing me that they were saved. (Fortunately for them, I am not the judge, but God himself is.)

Fourth, I agree that a heterosexual marriage will not fix them. But the Holy Spirit can. I would rather they remain celibate after salvation rather than possibly ruining someone else's life by a marriage that tries to fix them.

Each case is different. Best case scenario is that they get saved, and instantly are able to turn from their sin and live a normal Christian life. Others may find it difficult. For sure, without the help of God, it will be nigh on to impossible.

 

Ann,

Thanks for the scripture on why Jesus was demonstrating his unspoken stance by simply desribing what traditional marriage is. Good point.

 

An honest and sincere question for you. Can a true born again christian be a "XXX" star and a christian at the same time? How can one be saved, in Christ, and yet continually commit fornication/adultery? If one practices homosexuality while claiming to be saved, how can this be, seeing that such a lifestyle is an abomination before God? I asked this question because one can be just as much "saved" being a "XXX" star, as one who is openly gay.

 

Of course not! No Christian can continue in sin. Sapper Woody said it better (above) than I could have. The Holy Spirit leads Christians to repentance so that they do not continue in sin. A repentant homosexual may still have "gay feelings," and still be gay (an alcoholic is always an alcoholic even after conversion and years of sobriety, for example). Then as a Christian they would not continue practicing sin. Whether that sin is sodomy, fornication, adultery, drunkenness, gluttony, etc.

How did you and "freeatlast" get the idea that I was advocating homosexual sin? Y'all are gonna have a hard landing one day jumping to such outrageous conclusions! :smilewinkgrin:

Please pay attention to the entire thread.

-Robin

 

The reason you are being questioned is because you have denied the bible in another post by what you wrote and sound just like what the homosexual community is pushing. Now maybe you did not intend to do that but you did. Here is what you wrote and it is all anti-biblical;

"At very least I think that we can and should acknowledge that homosexuality is a real condition (not a "lifestyle") even though homosexual ACTS are forbidden by scripture. Homosexual Christians should be celibate rather than impose their condition on a partner they cannot share a true marriage with. But they should not be shamed into hiding their homosexuality while others can be open about sins that are just as grievous. Nor should a homosexual who wants to live righteously be encouraged to get married to an opposite-gender partner as in order to "make themselves straight." Marriage to a partner of the opposite gender does not "fix" homosexuality. It only hides it from the judgmental view of church people and creates a terrible prison of loneliness for both the homosexual and his or her partner."

First homosexuality is a lifestyle, not a condition as you claim.
Second there is no such thing as a homosexual Christian 1Cor 6
third you recommend no marriage but God does as it is better to marry then burn. 1Cor 7

The bible says and such were some of you (1Cor 6), not and such are some of you. Jesus came to set the captives free, not keep them imprisoned.

 

I'm going to throw my neck on the block and say that almost everyone in this thread needs to argue with Paul and Who inspired him to write what follows, rather than each other;

Romans 7: 14-25
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

And thank Heaven for what follows in Romans 8: 1

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Both "sides" of this issue seem to have something wrong and for both, grace seems to be the heart of it. I know that homosexuality is absolutely wrong, just as I know hateful reactions to sinners rather than sin is wrong. Christ in his life never rejected the "sick" outright because their acts were abhorrent or unappealing. He always extended grace and love and always did so with the intent to save them from a life of eternal damnation. I'll freely admit, this issue is confusing and frustrating to me but I'm also worried that for this particular issue, we Christians have somehow left our first love in ways that are legion and yet "justifiable". That's all sides of this issue.

 

Because of your confusion about those passages you are trying to justify sin. It was Paul who wrote 1 Cor 6
[FONT= ]9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [FONT= ]10[/FONT] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. [FONT= ]11[/FONT] And such were some of you: [/FONT]
1 Cor 6:9-11 (KJV)

 

But wasn't Paul addressing fellow Christians who were still doing these sinful acts? Wasn't he saying "You're followers of Christ now, you shouldn't be doing these things."?

I have a question. My mother-in-law knows of a christian couple who were running a particular ministry. The husband started and grew this ministry from the ground up and was involved for many years. He seemed to really love the Lord. Well, one day he ran off with a much younger woman and is still with her ( it's been at least 4 years). Now my question is, is he saved? It seemed like he had a heart for God while he was in the ministry. Was he never saved to begin with or did he lose his salvation because some people on here claim that a born again christian can't live in sin?

 

Then there is no such thing as a "lying Christian", "hating Christian", "selfish Christian", "gluttonous Christian", "swearing Christian", "stealing Christian", "gossiping Christian", etc. with that line of logic.