(Real) Wine for the communion ?

You forgot to add the part of the Nazirite vow of not getting your hair cut. Do not do any funerals too. Remember the vow for a time not a lifetime.

Numbers 6:2-8, "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, `When a man or woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite, to dedicate himself to the Lord, he shall abstain from wine and strong drink; he shall drink no vinegar, whether made from wine or strong drink, nor shall he drink any grape juice nor eat fresh or dried grapes. `All the days of his separation he shall not eat anything that is produced by the grape vine, from the seeds even to the skin. `All the days of his vow of separation no razor shall pass over his head. He shall be holy until the days are fulfilled for which he separated himself to the Lord; he shall let the locks of hair on his head grow long. `All the days of his separation to the Lord he shall not go near to a dead person. `He shall not make himself unclean for his father or for his mother, for his brother or for his sister, when they die, because his separation to God is on his head. `All the days of his separation he is holy to the Lord.

 

However, before pasteurization the only unleavened juice was fermented. An unleavened, unfermented juice prior to 1800 was impossible.

i disagree. We are given a precedent of which wine is the best in the OT, it is the well aged, well refined wine, not the new. Christ made this "best" wine, which has been passed on thousands of years up until today that which is well aged and well refined. New wine was fermented as well, as Moses got drunk off of new wine. New wine is a wine that is between 3 days and 2 weeks old. It has fermented, but not to the point of 12 - 14% which is what wine ferments to naturally. New wine would still be fermenting, hence the stretching of a wine skin.

 

Bill, I have heard others use your argument, but never from someone who's been there.

A couple of questions please: Do you know of any instance where this has happened--that someone who took wine at the Lord's Supper actually relapsed?

It is always the case that with one sip the alcoholic will fall off the wagon? Or is it just that it could happen? You're the expert here, and I defer to you. I was just wondering if there were actually instances of relapse?

 

There is much about alcoholism that is theory and not law. For instance, the "gene" theory, that there is an alcoholic gene passed on from generation to generation. This has never been proven. Neither has it been proven that someone with an addiction to alcohol will relapse with a drink. I tend to think this is more psychological than physiological. My father is a recovered alcoholic who still believes in this, yet will take Nyquil and eat food prepared with alcohol and won't relapse.

 

And leavened bread's yeast is dead too:thumbs:

 

My point was that it was considered 1) unclean, and 2) it was not permitted to be used or had when one was working or living as devoted unto the Lord.

 

Allen,
Believe it or not, I agree with you on this aspect of wine usage in the Lord's Supper. We are also in agreement in why we as individuals do not use it. The difference between us comes in our reaction as Christians to other believers who choose to use it in moderation. Very good post.

 

I cannot answer these questions! I only know that, as an alcoholic myself, I do not wish to take that chance.

I DO know that when I have (in the distant past!) taken a sip of alcohol, I have not been able to control myself to refuse any additional alcohol. That is, I can't stop! Therefore, I refuse to take that first sip. Would I have such a problem with a sip of the Communion wine? I do not know, but I do not wish to test it. ( I guess that did answer the last question.)

Bill :godisgood:

 

Bill, thanks for your answer.

 

Well said.

Now...I think it is possible to be flippant or "cute" about it, (for instance, in a normal setting, going in and using gummy bears and Sprite, simply because you wanted to "be different")...and that would be going too far the other way.

 

Romans 14

20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.​

Personally, I believe the use of "real" wine or grape juice is a decision of the local church.
If the decision is "real" wine then perhaps grape juice should also be allowed.​

Someone spoke of "individualism", in this case I think Romans 14 makes this kind of individualism scriptural.​

I know some Primitive Baptists are offended by grape juice because it's use was not the practice of the "primitive" church.​

Those who can't handle the wine let them take grapejuice without judging the brethren who have liberty and vice versa. ​

My opinion of course.​

The cup of the Lord's Supper came out of the Passover meal (Seder). Presumably the fourth cup, the cup of blessing.
Elija's cup is the fifth cup, there is also Miriam's cup (water).​

The bread was unleavened as it is/was under the control of the matzah maker. The wine was not and never has been from antiquity.​

I have an Hasidic friend who tells me that Seder wine must be alcoholic (some rebbes make a grape juice exception for those who can't drink wine) along with several other requirements over which, he tells me, controversies abound.​

However, I like the concept of the grape juice being unleavened as a symbol of our sinless Savior's precious blood.​

Personally I can use either.​

I don't know about water though (which BTW, is the practice of the Mormons).

HankD​

 

At one time, a lot of churches used Welch's Grape Juice for communion. It, however, is loaded with sugar and was hazardous for diabetics.

I think the liquid used is muchado about nothing. If it is symbolic, what does it matter? The remembrance is still there, and isn't that the point of communion in non-sacramental churches?

I never heard a debate over the "wine" in all my years, or the bread for that matter.

Let's debate whether the golf tees are plastic or wood!

Cheers,

Jim:sleep:

 

Not sure what you mean here?
When it comes to believers drinking I have no problem with it and have even sat at dinners and such and enjoyed our times together.

MY issue is not with drinking itself but the typical attitude of those of those believers regarding their 'liberty'. I my experience (and others I personally know) it has been observed most often those drink (not always but often) presume their liberty to do such trumps their weaker brother and they continue quite often even 'in spite' of them regardless of the harm to his/her walk of faith in Christ. What I dislike is the lack of Christlike love for the brethren which makes us as believers sacrifice ourselves and even our 'liberties) for the sake of each other and thus full Christ law of loving one another. (1 John 3:16)

Again, it isn't the drinking I disagree with but the attitude of many of who drink.

 

The cup of the Lord's Supper did come out of the Passover meal, just as the unleavened bread. However, the cup of blessing (1 Corinthians 10:16) is the third cup. In the order of the seder, the cup of blessing is followed by the great Hallel (singing of psalms). After that is the fourth cup, which seems to have been omitted at the occasion of the Last Supper. Some commentators have suggested that the fourth cup was the sour wine taken on the cross. Thus the prayer of Jesus, "Let this cup pass from me."

The cup of Elijah (fifth cup of wine) and the cup of Miriam (water) are common in today's practice of the seder but were not found in antiquity.

 

Wake up Jim! Just kidding (smiley).

I realize that the Lord's table is not sacerdotal but symbolic, however that symbolism arose out of the Passover celebration which involves unleavened bread and wine.

IMO, it is important that the elements of these symbols be retained as Jesus named them "fruit of the vine" and "bread".

Granted the word "wine" is not used in the NT of the drink of the last Seder but "fruit of the vine" presumably to make it easier for those who are offended by wine to substitute grape juice yet allow for either.

HankD

 

Do you not cut your hair too? If you choose to cut your hair then you have chosen to "cherry pick" your theology.

 

This coming from you is just funny :laugh:

However cutting your hair is not nor was it considered 1) 'unclean' which wine specifically is, and 2) not cutting your hair was something that while under that vow must be maintained 'for a sign', and then it must be cut afterward.

Not cutting your hair except while under a Nazarite vow was considered shameful so you whole point fails in any comparitive level to my examples in the OT of the abstaining from anything alcoholic while being in devoted service or duty to God.

 

Sees to me that if you do not claim to drink wine because of a Nazirite vow as an example then should you not also include not cutting your hair as an example too?

Maybe I am missing something but where is it found that wine was or is unclean?

Numbers 6:2-8, "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, `When a man or woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite, to dedicate himself to the Lord, he shall abstain from wine and strong drink; he shall drink no vinegar, whether made from wine or strong drink, nor shall he drink any grape juice nor eat fresh or dried grapes. `All the days of his separation he shall not eat anything that is produced by the grape vine, from the seeds even to the skin. `All the days of his vow of separation no razor shall pass over his head. He shall be holy until the days are fulfilled for which he separated himself to the Lord; he shall let the locks of hair on his head grow long. `All the days of his separation to the Lord he shall not go near to a dead person. `He shall not make himself unclean for his father or for his mother, for his brother or for his sister, when they die, because his separation to God is on his head. `All the days of his separation he is holy to the Lord.