Reasons one cannot pastor a church

Polygamy was illegal in the Roman Empire so I am quite sure the text is not referring to more than one wife at once, simply one in a lifetime.

And how can you overlook the significance of a divorced pastor trying to counsel a married couple? If he couldnt keep his marriage together, then how is he going to counsel anyone else on how to keep their marriage together.

Ex-alcoholics don't apply here because the instructions from God only address marriage.

It is an issue of credibility not unforgiveness.

I would bet that everyone here that is trying to find a loophole or deny the scripture knows someone that they feel would be disqualified if this passage was enforced by churches.

Well, that is between you, your pastor, your church and God.

John

 

My "assumption" my "position" and my 'rationale" is simply what the Bible says.....that a pastor should have only been married one time.

"May I be so bold as to point out that Jesus Himself was not the “husband of one wife”?"

Really? Do you really think that this scripture is incorrect because Jesus was not married?

What other scriptures do you deem incorrect?

If even one scripture is incorrect, then how do we believe any of the Bible?

John

 

Quote by BaptistBeliever:

"These situations are complex and if you’vie never been there, you really don’t understand the depths of the issues."

Why is it that you always deem everyone as 'ignorant" or incapable of "understanding" the scripture when you disagree with them?

These scriptures dont require a special understanding, they just require obedience.

Let me point out something here. If you disagree with these scriptures:

1Ti_3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Tit_1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly

Then you are disagreeing with the Bible, not with me.

John

 

I have news for you... if your spouse wants out of your marriage, there's nothing you can do to keep them in it unless you take them captive. Seriously.

And if you try to make the case that you just need to be the kind of person that someone will not reject, then you've just condemned God Himself since there are many people who reject God and there is nothing unrighteous about God.

We're not actually talking about instructions from God, but YOUR INTERPRETATION of the instructions from God.

Please explain to me how a divorce person is not "credible."

Why is someone who is divorced not credible to the church and the world?

 

Well, I am not going to argue.

The Bible says that a pastor should be the husband of one wife, so that is just how it is. No ifs, ands or buts.

John

 

That's not what the Bible says... the Bible says, "husband of one wife."

What is means is the real question. You have started from the assumption that your interpretation is infallible and that everyone who doesn't agree with it is somehow rejecting God's word, not your interpretation.

Of course not. Paul's teaching is correct. The reason I point that out is that you get into dangerous interpretive territory when you define qualifications for church leaders in a way where Jesus does not qualify to serve His own church. That should be a huge red flag.

Nice try.

Let me break it to you gently... you are not an infallible interpreter of God's word. I do have the right to call you on a faulty interpretation. It is not righteous of you to try to portray me as someone who is finding fault with the scripture. You keep misstating what the scripture actually says, should I make the claim that you don't know the scripture or are purposely trying to distort it? Of course not. I think you are sincerely mistaken, but mistaken nonetheless.

Ah yes, the "house of cards" theology strikes again. You're setting yourself up for a big fall if you truly believe this. The copies of the texts we have currently have some minor aberrations, although nothing that affects doctrine and practice*. However if you make the presumption that any contradiction in any part of the text means that none of it can be trusted (which logically, does not follow), then you're setting yourself up for a crisis of faith when someone points out some of the textual issues.


--
*After reading that last paragraph, there's going to be a bunch of folks who assume that I believe the Bible is "full of errors", so let me affirm to you that I believe the Bible is completely infallible for the purposes that God designed, according to what the Bible teaches. I believe the Bible is trustworthy and true and work hard to assimilate its text and teachings into my life. For instance, I am currently working on memorizing the Letter to the Colossians.

 

OK, what do you think "husband of one wife" means?

Polygamy is not an option because it was against the law under the Roman Empire.

John

 

Too late. You've already declared that divorce persons lack credibility, yet won't explain what you mean.

I can only assume the usual presuppositions that a person's marriage wouldn't have broken up if they:

- had tried to keep it together
- had prayed more or been a better Christian
- didn't have some secret sin that is the "real" cause of the divorce
- had not been bored with their spouse and wanted to be single again
- had taken their marriage seriously
- had not had a girlfriend or boyfriend on the side
- had cared what the Bible said or had any respect for God

Certainly these issues are true for some divorced people, but they are not true for all persons who are divorced.

Believe me, I've had people make these accusations to my face, never mind the stuff that was likely said behind my back.

In my situation, my wife cheated on me for more than a year after I caught her in the act with another man (no telling how long it had been going on before I caught her). Through more than a year of her continual rejection, I tried to work things out with her, offering her forgiveness and trying to get her to go to counseling with me. She rejected every overture of grace. Eventually, she left and moved in with another guy (not even the same one I had previously caught her with) and proceeded to completely fleece me financially and drive me into severe debt. Finally, I was advised by my pastor that the marriage was over, and had been over for a long time, and I just needed to tell the state about it (file for divorce) in order to protect lenders and others who were about to be taken advantage of since she was relying on my good credit (we are a community property state) and I was at the point where I could barely pay the minimum payment on the massive credit card bills she had racked up. (Please note, she didn't need my permission to apply for credit, but I was still responsible for her debts because of the laws.)

Of course, because I divorced my wife, "Christian" people have made all sorts of false character judgments against me while I find that unchurched people extend quite a bit more grace about such things.

The constant condemnation I received from Christians in churches and the venom from seminary students kept me away from church life for nearly a year while I healed up enough to move forward. I'd like to be able to testify that the church was there for me during that horrible time, but the only person who was helpful to me was that former pastor who advised me to go ahead and file for divorce.

I even had a fellow seminary student tell me that I shouldn't have divorced my wife, but should have just had a girlfriend on the side like he did :BangHead: so that I could still be "husband of one wife" and be eligible to pastor. Of course, I didn't have a girlfriend on the side nor did I want to have anything to do with another woman for a couple of years afterward.

For what it's worth to you, I am not a pastor anymore, although that is by my choice, I haven't pursued it. I honestly believe I am scripturally qualified to be a pastor, but that is not what God has called me to do at this point in my life.

Hey, now you've finally quoted it correctly. I can live with that.

 

Back in 1985 I was going to Bible College, had surrendered to the ministry, and recieved a liscense to preach from my SBC church.

Then, my wife started having an affair with another married man, we got divorced (she filed) and then she became a drug addict.

After we were divorced i was no longer eligible to pastor. I could still teach and preach but i could not be a pastor or a deacon as per the Bible. And I was OK with that.

Now, before anyone says that she is the one that had the affair, and she was the one that filed for divorce, and she was the one that became a drug addict....ect....let me point out my fault in this. I SHOULDNT HAVE NEVER MARRIED HER IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!! I didnt seek God's will, i just thought I was in love and married her.

I cannot to this day be a pastor or deacon, but I can serve in many other ways. I fell very inadequate to try to counsel any married couple, because what do I know about marriage? I was a failure at marriage.

I remained single until 2004 and remarried, We have a 6 year old and we are active in our church. But I know and respect the restrictions that God has on me because my witness for him has been compromised somewhat by divorce.

The difference between me and you is that I accept God's teachings and can live with it. I dont need to look for loopholes to try to get around them.

I have had more than one wife, they are both still living. Therefore I am not qualified to pastor a church.

Now, has God forgiven me? Of course He has.

Has God blessed my present marriage? Of course He has.

But my witness to others is still compromised.

John

 

As I have stated previously, I believe it is speaking to character: "a one-woman man."

This is referring to someone who can commit to one woman and is devoted to her and her alone.

This would allow for those who are widowed and remarried to pastor. (May I point out that since the penalty for adultery is stoning, that those who are divorced due to adultery would actually be widowers if that biblical penalty were carried out, so its rather inconsistent to hold someone accountable for their former spouse's sin.) It would also allow those who are not currently married due to having never married (Jesus) or being widowed (the Apostle Paul?) to serve.

If you go with the "one-woman man" understanding of the passage, it would eliminate those who have extra-marital relationships, even if they are technically "husband of one wife."

If I remember correctly, wasn't Herod the Great married to more than one woman at a time? He's hardly an example of morality and character (although, that is actually the point), so I wouldn't take Roman law as being absolute in that regard. In that part of the world, you were a long way from Rome and things may have been much looser. My grandfather was born and raised in the Balkans and regularly traded for his business with Turkish merchants who had more than one wife, and this was back in the 1930s in the former Yugoslavia.

In the United States, polygamy was officially illegal, but officially practiced by the Mormons from their early days through around 1890. Even today, there is more unofficial polygamy going on among Mormons than people might expect.

 

>Re marriage after a divorce/even before salvation

What else can "husband of one wife" mean? Paul taught that the leadership came from the congregation. Were there polygamists in the congregation? Or is he requiring that a pastor be married?

 

>May I point out that since the penalty for adultery is stoning

Gentlemen, man your rock pile.

 

I have to agree with you here. My life is much better now, 30 years later, and God has and is blessing me, but that doesnt change his requirements for being a pastor.

Years ago the restriction made me angry, but over time I learned to accept it as God's final Word and learned to serve in other ways.

BTW, I was saved when I married her, I just didnt seek out God's will and married the wrong person.

John

 

1Ti_3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Tit_1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly

It doesnt say I cant "minister" again. It simply says i cant hold a leadership position in the church. And I believe the biblical basis for that is in this scripture. I believe it is indisputable and beyond debate.

It is what it is.

John