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Featured Reconciling Paul, Hebrews and James

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Martin Marprelate, Sep 4, 2021.

  1. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Well, I don’t remember accusing you of anything. I’ve stated my belief that should works merit salvation, even in part. then salvation is no longer by grace.

    Don’t take that personally.

    We can, however, end the conversation before it gets personal, I’m fine with that.

    Thanks for the discussion

    peace to you
     
  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I understand that you would think that, and I'm sure you understand that I disagree.entirely.
     
  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    The great point of Romans 2 is that it comes immediately before Romans 3. The whole point of Chapter 2 through to 3:20 is to point out that Jews are no better than Gentiles (Romans 2:12) and that both are guilty before God (Romans 3:19-20). Therefore, if anyone is to be saved, it will not be by works but by grace (Romans 3:21ff).

    I have had a quick look at the occurrences of dikaioo, 'justify' in the N.T. and I cannot find anywhere that it says specifically that God Himself justifies the righteous. On the contrary, He justifies the ungodly (Romans 4:5) and Christ died specifically for the ungodly (Romans 5:6; c.f. Mark 2:17) who were the very people He came for. Therefore, if anyone supposes that he is righteous in himself (contra Romans 7:18), he has nothing to do with Jesus Christ.

    So what about these Last Day judgement scenes like Matthew 25:31ff when it is works that justify or condemn those being judged? On that day, our works will justify us; they will declare us righteous in God's sight; they will be the evidence that God has justified us when we were still in our sins, given us new birth, a new heart and a new spirit, and written His righteous moral law upon out hearts.

    In Exodus 23:7, God declares, "I will not justify the wicked," and He does not. Christ on the cross has paid the penalty for our sins; He was made sin, the very epitome of sin, and God punished our sin in Him, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. This is Luther's 'Great Exchange;' that there on the cross, all our sins were laid upon His sinless shoulders an His perfect righteousness and obedience were credited to us who believe (Romans 5:19).

    This is absolutely vital. We can have nothing to do with the Roman Catholic conflation of justification with sanctification, nor with N.T. Wright's teachings which are only marginally better. But nor can we accept the antinomianism of those who suppose that having justified us by grace, God then leaves us to our own devices. No! Our God and Saviour Jesus Christ gave Himself for us that He might purify us from every lawless deed, and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works (Titus 2:14).
     
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Well, you have misrepresented me, whether intentionally or not, that I'm espousing a 'merit-based' salvation. I'm espousing scripture, which you seem to be unable to cope with. In no way shape fashion or form am I saying we are saved by works. Our justification is 100% by God's grace, NOT by the letter of the law.
     
    #44 kyredneck, Sep 7, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2021
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  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Good works have nothing to do with being Justified and now having eternal life in Christ!
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Yes I agree. 2 comes before 3.

    Yes I agree. That is A point, but there's much more to be gleaned from Ro 2 than only that. "Jews are no better than Gentiles" is a consistent, oft repeated theme throughout the epistle.

    K.

    K.

    K.

    K. But the fact still remains that God is going to render to every man according to their works, period. This is crystal clear plain from scripture and it seems to me that you 'faith alone' people have taken an 'ostrich approach' to this and have pretended that it's not there. Well, it's there!
     
  8. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    AMEN!!!... Brother Glen:Thumbsup:Thumbsup:Thumbsup... Three thumbs up for the three and one Godhead!!!... And three exclamation points for declaration.
     
    #48 tyndale1946, Sep 7, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2021
  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Every one of us are espousing scripture. The question is whether we are rightly understanding scripture.

    I am happy to see you acknowledge that our salvation is 100% by grace. By grace, God gifts us with faith to believe that Jesus substitutional atonement has imputed his righteousness. Therefore we are justified by faith, apart from works of the flesh. The very letter you are quoting shares this truth in full as you read the entire letter. Sniping a few verses out of context is not a good way to establish theology.
     
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  10. James65

    James65 New Member

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    One thing that would help don’t stop at verse 9 in Ephesians 2, because the Apostle explains it will in verse 10:
    For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in. Ephesians 2:10

    Paul state that we are not saved by our own works in Ephesians 2:8-9; but states in verse 10 in Christ Jesus we will do good works or basically the Holy Spirit will work in our life’s to produce His good work(s) or fruit. This is what James refers to as works that show true faith. Jesus refers to in Matthew 7:16-20.

    Many believe that Hebrews 6:1-9 speaks of Christian falling from grace. But IMHO it speaks more to telling the difference between a true Believer and one who makes a false profession. For once again a verse 10, give great clearance to the subject:
    For God is not unrighteousness to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward His Name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. Hebrew 6:10
    Here the true Believers are allowing God’s Spirit to produce His fruit(s) in their life.
     
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  11. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    It is true that all Scripture is profitable but is it not interesting that James is addressed to the twelve tribes, a group that the reformed think has been replaced by...themselves.

    Paul clearly states that we are saved by Gods grace through faith. The trick is to find a solution to the assertion that James teaches that works somehow play into salvation. If the reformed think that the solution is that the believer must perform works to prove that they have the free gift of salvation, then salvation is not a free gift of grace, it is the results of at least some small measure of works. While Biblically incorrect, the catholics are at least transparent where the reformed are subtle.

    Personally I don't think any man can read the heart of another nor do I think any man is able to show works offered strictly for the glory of God. Moses, a man who accomplished much for the Kingdom was not immune to sin and thus faltered in this area. Daniel did not have a full understanding of the ways of God so I doubt that any of us, reformed or otherwise do either.

    Jesus told the woman at the well that one day we will worship God in spirit and in truth. Speaking only for me, I get the truth from the words of Scripture. I don't think Scripture can avoid speaking about works since that is the default mode of worship of the natural man. It seems reasonable enough to me that if I can do a good work purely for the advancement of the kingdom with no tinge of self promotion then that work would be acceptable but who can really do that?
     
  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Read Romans 9-11 and you will see there is no replacement. Such a label comes from those who do not understand the elective work of God. Both James and Paul are in perfect agreement. It is the legalist who misunderstands both and thus miss the gospel of grace expressed by both.
     
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  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Good works are the fruit and evidence that one has really been saved....
     
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  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Both Jews and Gentiles saved by same Lord Jesus, both now part of true Israel of God!
     
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  15. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    It seems to me that the mode of operation of the reformed crowd is to repeat the same thing over and over, offering up free lecture series to those who disagree with the hope that the opposition will throw up the white flag and the reformed crowd will thus win the war for the glorious cause of Calvinism.
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    How so my brother?
     
  17. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Would you rather be ignored?

    The same truth keeps being shared and you keep throwing it away. Now where do you suppose the problem lies?
     
  18. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    And those who oppose the doctrines of grace presume to know what motivates the “reformed crowd”.

    I “repeat” scripture over and over to further the cause of Christ in the world, not the “cause of Calvinism”

    peace to you
     
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  19. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    I could say the same exact thing in my defense
     
  20. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Im not questioning your motives. I’m not presuming to know your motives for making the comments.

    You claim the “Calvinist crowd” is only concerned about the “cause of Calvinism”. That is untrue.

    peace to you
     
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