Redemption From Sodomy

Mark Osgatharp · Sep 24, 2002

Another thread on the subject of "homosexuality" is now in it's 168th post with the usual "tit for tat" of "uh-huh" and "uh-uh" going back and forth.

All sincere believers in Jesus Christ believe that sodomy is a sin; it is useless to argue with those who deny it for they are wicked men who have no intention whatsoever of bowing to the dictates of God on this subject.

I would like to address some aspects of this subject that might actually have some value to those who are involved in this sin or who have loved ones who are involved in this sin.

According to I Corinthians chapter 6, some of the saints at Corinth had previously been involved in sodomy. And yet they, along with all the other saints, had been washed, cleansed, and justified by the Spirit of God.

That tells me that a man or woman who has fallen into homosexuality can be redeemed from that sin. Not only can they be saved but they can be welcomed as members of the church

I say this because I have personally known people who didn't think that repentent sodomites should be allowed to join the church. To reject a repentent sodomite is just as much contrary to the word of God as to justify the sin of sodomy.

As a matter of fact, when a sodomite repents he is no longer a sodomite, any more than an adulterer is still and adulterer if he repents of his adultery.

The second thing I would like to address about this subject is the misconception that if a person is saved they will not commit the sin of sodomy. To say such a thing is just as wrong as saying if a man is saved he won't lie.

All of us sin every day and there is nothing in the Bible that says that a child of God is not capable of committing the sin of sodomy.

This is important to understand because there are doubtless children of God who have committed this sin and they don't need to be made to doubt their salvation. Rather, they need to be made to understand that their sin is an abomination to God and a blotch on their life so they will flee from it.

I knew a couple whose son, who professed to be saved, became involved in sodomy and died in that condition. This couple had a pastor who taught that it was impossible for a saved person to commit this sin.

I can only imagine the grief of having a child die in this awful condition; but to have a pastor tell you that it was not possible that your child was saved would be more than a person could bare.

So let these four things be settled once for all:

1. Sodomy is a horrible sin against God.

2. God is willing to save a sodomite as surely as anyone else.

3. Repentant sodomites should be welcomed into the full fellowship of the church.

4. Committing sodomy is no more a sign that a person is not saved than committing any other sin.

Mark Osgatharp

Rev. Joshua · Sep 24, 2002

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
So let these four things be settled once for all:
Click to expand...

Mark, this may come as a shock to you, but "settled" for you does not mean settled for the rest of Christianity.

Joshua

Mark Osgatharp · Sep 24, 2002

Joshua,

I'm sure this won't come as any shock to you, but I value your opinion on any subject as little as I value a gob of snot on the ground.

Mark Osgatharp

stubbornkelly · Sep 24, 2002

I'll echo Joshua on that. However, I was glad to read #4. Although I don't agree with #1, and since the premise of numbers 2 and 3 is the truth of #1, I can't go for those either. Actually, #4 also rests of the premise of #1 as well, but I was still glad to hear (see) it said (written).

Additionally, when you say sodomy, are you referring only to sexual acts between two persons of the same sex, or are you using it in its more recent (?) definition that defines all oral and anal sex as sodomy? Just curious, as the latter definition would put heterosexuals who practice sodomy in an interesting dilemma, given the conclusions you present.

RomOne16 · Sep 24, 2002

Yikes Stubbornkelly . You might want to be a little less descriptive in posts on such subjects. You never know the ages of the people reading.

Please don't be offended. I'm just trying to be helpful.

stubbornkelly · Sep 24, 2002

You may be right, but I don't know how else to ask it. I guess I could have asked, "are you referring to sodomy when you use the word sodomy," but I somehow don't think that would work very well. And since some might say that heterosexual sodomy is an oxymoron, well . . . Any better suggestions?

The point of the second part of my post wasn't to get started on the definition of sodomy, per se, just to point out that when "we" condemn sodomy outright, we're condemning sex acts that can and do take place between married, opposite-sex couples, too. Unless, of course, we're not calling those acts sodomy, but something else. Or maybe "we" are condemning those acts?

Primitive Baptist · Sep 24, 2002

QUESTION: Who is the Sodomite in the following scenario?

There are two people. One has a temptation to commit sodomy, but the other one does not. The one who does fights the temptation and does not do anything. The one who does not falls into it, but does not have those temptations, that is, ordinarily. Who is the sodomite; the one who has the feelings ordinarily or the one who does not have the feelings ordinarily and falls into it? Just curious to know the response...

Daniel David · Sep 24, 2002

Both are. Homosexual desires are sin in any form. Lust for someone of the same sex is evidence of a depraved mind according to God.

Out like all arguments of substance that okay homo behavior.

Mark Osgatharp · Sep 24, 2002

Originally posted by PreachtheWord:
Both are. Homosexual desires are sin in any form. Lust for someone of the same sex is evidence of a depraved mind according to God.
Click to expand...

PreachTheWord,

Amen! And I might add that sin in any form, whether in thought or deed, is evidence of a depraved mind according to God. One of the almost forgotten histsoric Baptist doctrines is the total depravity of man; but that would be for another thread.

Mark Osgatharp

mark · Sep 24, 2002

I am interested in your answer to Kelly's Question.. are you defining this as only between two of the same sex?

Phillip · Sep 24, 2002

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Another thread on the subject of "homosexuality" is now in it's 168th post with the usual "tit for tat" of "uh-huh" and "uh-uh" going back and forth.

All sincere believers in Jesus Christ believe that sodomy is a sin; it is useless to argue with those who deny it for they are wicked men who have no intention whatsoever of bowing to the dictates of God on this subject.

I would like to address some aspects of this subject that might actually have some value to those who are involved in this sin or who have loved ones who are involved in this sin.

According to I Corinthians chapter 6, some of the saints at Corinth had previously been involved in sodomy. And yet they, along with all the other saints, had been washed, cleansed, and justified by the Spirit of God.

That tells me that a man or woman who has fallen into homosexuality can be redeemed from that sin. Not only can they be saved but they can be welcomed as members of the church

I say this because I have personally known people who didn't think that repentent sodomites should be allowed to join the church. To reject a repentent sodomite is just as much contrary to the word of God as to justify the sin of sodomy.

As a matter of fact, when a sodomite repents he is no longer a sodomite, any more than an adulterer is still and adulterer if he repents of his adultery.

The second thing I would like to address about this subject is the misconception that if a person is saved they will not commit the sin of sodomy. To say such a thing is just as wrong as saying if a man is saved he won't lie.

All of us sin every day and there is nothing in the Bible that says that a child of God is not capable of committing the sin of sodomy.

This is important to understand because there are doubtless children of God who have committed this sin and they don't need to be made to doubt their salvation. Rather, they need to be made to understand that their sin is an abomination to God and a blotch on their life so they will flee from it.

I knew a couple whose son, who professed to be saved, became involved in sodomy and died in that condition. This couple had a pastor who taught that it was impossible for a saved person to commit this sin.

I can only imagine the grief of having a child die in this awful condition; but to have a pastor tell you that it was not possible that your child was saved would be more than a person could bare.

So let these four things be settled once for all:

1. Sodomy is a horrible sin against God.

2. God is willing to save a sodomite as surely as anyone else.

3. Repentant sodomites should be welcomed into the full fellowship of the church.

4. Committing sodomy is no more a sign that a person is not saved than committing any other sin.

Mark Osgatharp
Click to expand...

I agree, the only reservation I would have to number 3 would not be related to sodomites unless they have a history of child molestation whether bisexual or homosexual. I would allow them back in the church, but they would have to submit to being escourted by adult volunteers or at least kept away from the kids.

Speaking of homosexuals-----three times when I was young I was approached and solicited by child molesters-----strange enough all three were full grown men. Two were teachers.

I agree with everything you say above about the sin, but I have a REAL problem when a preacher claims to be Baptist would say to the world that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. I, as Paul would have done, must question their salvation. Sorry, but the Bible is pretty blunt about recognizing and dealing with sinful lifestyles "in Christ's kingdom".

Mark Osgatharp · Sep 24, 2002

Phillip,

I, too, would question the salvation of a preacher who said that sodomy was not a sin, because that would be an indication to me that he does not accept the authority of Scripture, and unless a man accepts the authority of Scripture, he cannot be saved.

And for those who are wanting to play semantic games (and I'm not talking about you, Phillip), for the purpose of this discussion I use the term "sodomy" exclusively to mean any sexual behavior between persons of the same gender.

Mark Osgatharp

stubbornkelly · Sep 24, 2002

I'm guessing, then, that you meant me. But, please, correct me if I'm wrong on that point.

Still . . . My question on your definition of sodomy was quite legitimate, given your discourse about sodomy and sodomites. You did use sodomy much more than you used homosexual, and given the statements like "odomy is a horrible sin against God," I thought it essential to get clarification.

I still stand by my first post. Including my praise of certain of your statements.

Helen · Sep 24, 2002

Thank you for your original post, Mark. Isn't it amazing how many people are willing to fight regarding even this?

All I would want to add is that I have two very close friends (one of each gender) who were involved in a homosexual lifestyle for some time 'before.' Before what? Before Christ came into their lives and before they took Him seriously. Both are now married and parents.

Both had been lured into the former lifestyle by others of that lifestyle. Both had been lonely and craved the companionship. Both felt they were 'truly' homosexual as that is where they had found the companionship they were so hungry for.

Both are very glad to be out of it, rescued by God.

I also know of a man who is a respected music teacher (although he may be retired now) who got involved in homosexuality as a pre-teen or teen via, from what I understand, pornography. He subsequently 'used' his younger brother a number of times a week as they shared a bedroom while growing up. That younger brother never became homosexual, but he did end up having a series of affairs with women, in a seeming attempt to prove his masculinity to himself. During a 20 year marriage he kept up those affairs, destroying his marriage and severely damaging his children. I know about this one because I was the one he was married to.

Not only is homosexuality an abomination to God, but it is destructive of the people around them, too.

I can only imagine how different life would have been if either of those two brothers had repented and really turned to the Lord in submission instead of simply mouthing His name and declaring that what had been happening was really OK.

I see the healing and joy of my two friends, and compare it with the misery brought to an entire extended family because of one person's involvement in that lifestyle (and yes, he ended up having a commited, long term relationship with a partner who was (is?) a stockbroker -- but the damage to the entire family was incredible), and I can not only see that God CAN heal and forgive this crime, but that when He does, it is an incredibly joyful thing.

Mark Guthrie · Sep 24, 2002

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Another thread on the subject of "homosexuality" is now in it's 168th post with the usual "tit for tat" of "uh-huh" and "uh-uh" going back and forth.

All sincere believers in Jesus Christ believe that sodomy is a sin; it is useless to argue with those who deny it for they are wicked men who have no intention whatsoever of bowing to the dictates of God on this subject.

I would like to address some aspects of this subject that might actually have some value to those who are involved in this sin or who have loved ones who are involved in this sin.

According to I Corinthians chapter 6, some of the saints at Corinth had previously been involved in sodomy. And yet they, along with all the other saints, had been washed, cleansed, and justified by the Spirit of God.

That tells me that a man or woman who has fallen into homosexuality can be redeemed from that sin. Not only can they be saved but they can be welcomed as members of the church

I say this because I have personally known people who didn't think that repentent sodomites should be allowed to join the church. To reject a repentent sodomite is just as much contrary to the word of God as to justify the sin of sodomy.

As a matter of fact, when a sodomite repents he is no longer a sodomite, any more than an adulterer is still and adulterer if he repents of his adultery.

The second thing I would like to address about this subject is the misconception that if a person is saved they will not commit the sin of sodomy. To say such a thing is just as wrong as saying if a man is saved he won't lie.

All of us sin every day and there is nothing in the Bible that says that a child of God is not capable of committing the sin of sodomy.

This is important to understand because there are doubtless children of God who have committed this sin and they don't need to be made to doubt their salvation. Rather, they need to be made to understand that their sin is an abomination to God and a blotch on their life so they will flee from it.

I knew a couple whose son, who professed to be saved, became involved in sodomy and died in that condition. This couple had a pastor who taught that it was impossible for a saved person to commit this sin.

I can only imagine the grief of having a child die in this awful condition; but to have a pastor tell you that it was not possible that your child was saved would be more than a person could bare.

So let these four things be settled once for all:

1. Sodomy is a horrible sin against God.

2. God is willing to save a sodomite as surely as anyone else.

3. Repentant sodomites should be welcomed into the full fellowship of the church.

4. Committing sodomy is no more a sign that a person is not saved than committing any other sin.

Mark Osgatharp
Click to expand...

Mark, how are ya. They mentioned at the other forum that you were here, good to read your words again. Whew, it is good to see that there are still lovers of Jesus out there. I was becoming discouraged.

Mark Guthrie · Sep 24, 2002

Originally posted by Rev. Joshua:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
So let these four things be settled once for all:
Click to expand...

Mark, this may come as a shock to you, but "settled" for you does not mean settled for the rest of Christianity.

Joshua[/QUOTE]If a person is a true Christian, then scripture is enought to settle any issue. AMEN REV.

post-it · Sep 25, 2002

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:

According to I Corinthians chapter 6, some of the saints at Corinth had previously been involved in sodomy. And yet they, along with all the other saints, had been washed, cleansed, and justified by the Spirit of God.

That tells me that a man or woman who has fallen into homosexuality can be redeemed from that sin. Not only can they be saved but they can be welcomed as members of the church
Click to expand...

I don't think you are quoting scripture correctly here, but let's assume you are. I would agree that this type of homosexual behavior is a sin that needs to be stopped.

I say this because I have personally known people who didn't think that repentent sodomites should be allowed to join the church. To reject a repentent sodomite is just as much contrary to the word of God as to justify the sin of sodomy.
Click to expand...

The use of the word sodomite is extremly ambiguous here and I have a problem with where in the NT you have found such a word. In the OT, sodomite means a male prostitute or a male homosexual prostitute. In either case, you are not using it correctly, thus building an entire argument on a false definition.

The second thing I would like to address about this subject is the misconception that if a person is saved they will not commit the sin of sodomy. To say such a thing is just as wrong as saying if a man is saved he won't lie.

All of us sin every day and there is nothing in the Bible that says that a child of God is not capable of committing the sin of sodomy.
Click to expand...

This, I agree with you on if the person in not a natual born homosexual or married homosexual. All scripture that touch on this subject use the fornication meaning with it. Once one is married, there can be no fornication within the marriage. In some verses, it has been defined as homosexual but infact, it is meaning sex outside marriage or an Idol worhip of some sort. Only Romans 1:27 gives a clear meaning of homosexual action that should be counted as sin, and that is men or women who where once heterosexual and they crossed over to acting homosexual. But it was very clear that these were unnatural acts for these people, they were heterosexual not born homosexual.

AVL1984 · Sep 25, 2002

Originally posted by Rev. Joshua:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
So let these four things be settled once for all:
Click to expand...

Mark, this may come as a shock to you, but "settled" for you does not mean settled for the rest of Christianity.

Joshua[/QUOTE]I would have to agree with you on this Joshua. I have a problem with #3 of Marks statement. I've seen a "former homosexual" allowed into full membership of the church, and moved into a leadership position without a proper time of "proving" himself. He did great damage to the church involved, not only because of his former actions, but because no one thoroughly checked out his current ones. He had fallen back into the "old lifestyle", several members knowing this, but doing very little about it, afraid of the repurcussions on the church, not just in membership, but from the outsiders. The man eventually did repent, but the church was never the same, and eventually closed it's doors. I believe there should be a certain amount of time, discreetly chosen by the pastors and deacons before such an one should be allowed to become a very active part of the church.

AJL

C.S. Murphy · Sep 25, 2002

Originally posted by post-it:
]This, I agree with you on if the person in not a natual born homosexual or married homosexual.

homosexuals are not born they learn that lifestyle, many are thrown into it by porno or molestation but they are created with a free will and they have a choice.

All scripture that touch on this subject use the fornication meaning with it. Once one is married, there can be no fornication within the marriage.

So if thie reasoning is true I can marry a goat or any beast and the warning that beastiality is made void once we are married. I hope you see how sill this is.

By the way I think everyone here including you know what they mean by sodomite, do you remember sodom and gomorrah. By your view we must think that those homosexuals who tried to get lot were merely hookers who sought to do business with him.

Murph
Click to expand...

Mark Osgatharp · Sep 25, 2002

Originally posted by Anthony J Lanius:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Joshua
Click to expand...

I would have to agree with you on this Joshua. I have a problem with #3 of Marks statement. I've seen a 'former homosexual' allowed into full membership of the church, and moved into a leadership position without a proper time of 'proving' himself[/QB][/QUOTE]Anthony,

I have seen men who weren't known as a "former" anything do great damage to a church by being ordained to the ministry. Certainly, any man who is going to be ordained ought first to prove himself, and even then we have no absolute assurance that he won't defile his calling.

That has nothing to do with the issue of church membership. The Bible specifically says that repentant sodomites were received as members of the church and it didn't say they had to be "aired out" first.

Mark Osgatharp

P.S. Don't expect to get any sympathy from Joshua on this issue - he doesn't even think sodomy is a sin and his church ordained an impenitent sodomite as deacon.

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