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Reformation Calvinism...or not :smilewinkgrin:

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by JonC, Oct 22, 2013.

  1. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I made an off the hand comment about historical Calvinism (not DoG or Calvinism in terms of soteriology) maintaining ideologies of the Catholic church. I didn’t want to hijack another thread and was not really interested in getting into the matter, but a fellow poster insists that this is an erroneous view. This poster seems to indicate that Calvinism (historical....again NOT DoG or modern Calvinism) carried over no Catholic ideologies. This would mean that Calvin did not believe in a Christian state, infant baptism, or Sacramental union to an extent that could be tied to Catholic ideology.

    I did study church history, but it has been awhile. Again, my comments are about the Reformed (e.g., Zwinglian and Calvinist) movements in history and not DoG (which should be adequately clear). So I’ll post what I thought I remembered and please correct me where I am mistaken (no hurt feelings on my part).

    The reformers (to include Zwingli and Calvin) carried over ideologies that originated with the Catholic church (the idea of “Christendom, for example). A substantial group objected to the “Romish” nature of the Reformation and became the “radical reformation” or “Second Front.” Baptist theology also holds some of these objections to some of the ideologies carried over (e.g., “Christendom,” infant baptism, sacramental union).

    Perhaps a good way to begin is to define Reformation Calvinism’s understanding of the relationship between the Church and civil government and where that understanding originated.

    Note: Again, not speaking of DoG or Calvinists. Speaking of Reformation Calvinism when you would be killed for teaching “believer’s baptism.”
     
    #1 JonC, Oct 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2013
  2. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I take it from the abounding silence that most agree that a segment believed that the Reformation did not go far enough in its "reform" and maintained a fair amount of Catholic ideology.

    It is odd that I post this on one thread and get challenged, but when I post it in as a new thread in order not to derail the original it seems to pass muster.
     
  3. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth New Member

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    Sorry bro, it must've gotten buried. No need to flex, I'll get to it soon enough. :love2:
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    :smilewinkgrin: No problem - I really didn't know where I should post it and stuck it in "Baptist History." Figured replying would shoot it back up there (if you are like me and use the "today's post" selection).
     
  5. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth New Member

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    Probably in the 'clean humor' section! :laugh:

    But seriously probably cal/arm debate.
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    :thumbsup: ...maybe....it wouldn't be that funny...but I'm not a very funny guy anyway.

    Wouldn't be in the cal/arm debate. I wasn't thinking you were Arm. and I certainly am not - plus my comment was actually Reformation (pre-Dort) Calvinism and the claim that they did not rid themselves of all Catholic ideologies.
     
  7. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Your question is not strictly germaine to this forum. However, historical Baptist critiques of the magisterial Reformation would be a proper topic of discussion.
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    You are right, I probably could have put this “as is” in general discussions – but I suppose it doesn’t matter too much as just about all threads transition into something else that may (at best) have a little resemblance to the original post.

    My understanding (and how this is suitable for Baptist history) is that Baptist doctrine is not only related to the doctrines of the Reformation but also to the radical reformers who saw the magisterial Reformation as not going far enough from Catholic ideologies, tradition, and doctrine (in Protestant form). Early Calvinism maintained a distinct Catholic worldview of the Church and civil government. I believe that infant baptism (particularly for Zwingli and I believe also for Calvin) is directly related to this view of Christendom with the secular government serving as an “arm” of the Church. The local church as a body of believers and “believers baptism” is a foundational Baptist doctrine and, I believe, one that did not originate with the Reformers but instead stood in direct opposition. (Hopefully that made it more appropriate for this section :) )
     
  9. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member

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    SBTS President Albert Mohler:

    in The Anabaptists and Contemporary Baptists, Restoring New Testament Christianity, B&H Academic, 2013

    http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=41339
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Great article (I’ll have to get the book, looks interesting). And I agree with Mohler – we Baptists do, of course, owe a lot to the Reformers but we are also indebted to the Radical Reformation in our theology and worldview. Personally, I see the Radical Reformer’s definition of the Church as a return to the NT understanding and a departure from Catholic doctrine maintained by the Reformers.
     
  11. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth New Member

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    Sorry it took a while to get to this...

    I see what you're saying and I both agree and disagree.

    As far as keeping infant Baptism, I believe these genuinely believed some passages to actually support this, albeit eisegetically, as in the case of the Philippian jailer.

    As far as the OP, what I am not saying is that they didn't carry ANY over, but that they are far away from being Catholic in teaching as not to be confused as still remaining such. When a person claims a system to be 'catholic' the automatic red flag goes up and soteriology is the first thought. As long as there is a solid soteriology, that is, that Christ and Christ alone saves, then I can overlook most other orthodox beliefs that differ with my stance.
     
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