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Reformed Fundamentalism

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, Jun 9, 2019.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I may not completely agree with article (or I may :Speechless ), but I thought it interesting.

    “The most common symptom of a cage-stage [Calvinist] is the complete disregard for kindness—as though it were not a fruit of the Spirit. Humility, gentleness, love, and patience are not luxuries. They aren’t something we pursue if we have time—they are marks of discipleship with the risen Lord. Jesus commands us to love our neighbors—Calvinist, Arminian, or atheist—as ourselves. Always.”

    Calvinists: The Worst of White People
     
  2. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    I don't know what the deal with the young Calvinists is. I get along great with older Calvinists. This new breed makes me want to knock their teeth out. Online is fine. When we come into a Calvinism vs Arminianism forum, heated debate is expected, but I don't want to hear about Calvinism at Church. I don't want to hear about it in Sunday School. I don't want to be caught in the hall and annoyed about it. My best friend is a High Calvinist, and he rarely ever mentions Calvinism. These young ones just annoy the mess out of me.
     
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    So you like your Calvinists seen, but not heard?:Redface:Sick:Cautious
     
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  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yet another edifying post:Thumbsup
     
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  5. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Thank you.

    It is important to consider the views of other Christians. Many times those outside of our circles see what those inside cannot (even if we disagree with their conclusions).

    That Calvinists are viewed as arrogant and unkind (often as religious bigots) by many outside of Calvinism is not in dispute. But the description is typically noted in a paticular segment of Calvinists.

    As you note, we should ask why. Why are the fruits of some Calvinists so ungodly while other Calvinists are Christ-like? Why is the reputation of Calvinists determined by the worst of that sect?

    Anyway, thanks for the reply. I agree - article is edifying. I was worried it would be beyond the grasp of some here as a few tend to be extremely "campish" and intolerant of any criticism of their sect.

    In what ways do you believe Calvinists can help repair this reputation? What makes the "cage stage" the way they are?

    My solution is an emphisis on pastoral in seminaries. But this only takes care of the ministry. Often, it seems, the problem is within the laity.
     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    What makes some Calvinists come across that way is people such as yourself who do not understand the teaching, but instead constantly post against it and hinder people from studying it out.
    Some of the mature persons, such as Martin, and Biblicist, see right through your agenda, and choose not to continue with such a dishonest agenda.
    Was it just yesterday that you thanked Baptistboard for silencing those who corrected your many errors?
    You could not answer them on a level playing field, so instead you like them silenced.
    Lol, JonC...when you go fishing do you take your fishing pole to the piggly wiggly, or Kroger, to the seafood section and attach your hook to those dead fish in the seafood case?
    You find it easier to catch and reel them in?

    Your ideas are a mix of truth and error as most all of us have. When others point out your errors you react by going after them making up and accusing them of things they did not post, things they did not believe.
    After they leave because they do not want to answer such nonsense, then you post knowing they will no longer respond!
    You seem to like getting that last word in...we have noticed.
    Oh yeah another thing as far as the article.
    It was actually James White among others who used that term cage stage.
    Calvinists can take an objective look at themselves and offer and take correction

    They do not need the all seeing eye of JonC accompanies by such stage wisdom to understand what happens,thank you very much.
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Yes, Calvinists have identified the issue (your acknowledgement is odd as you suggested it was only in my mind).

    On another thread I mentioned those like John Piper addressing the issue (John Piper is a Calvinist).

    Re-read what you posted, @Iconoclast , and ask yourself where it stacks up to the quote:

    “The most common symptom of a cage-stage [Calvinist] is the complete disregard for kindness—as though it were not a fruit of the Spirit. Humility, gentleness, love, and patience are not luxuries. They aren’t something we pursue if we have time—they are marks of discipleship with the risen Lord. Jesus commands us to love our neighbors—Calvinist, Arminian, or atheist—as ourselves. Always.”

    You have assumed that I am somehow "anti-Calvinistic", that for reasons you only imagine I do not understand Calvinism, etc. Why the assumptions?

    I propose it is because I have pointed out a problem (a well known problem) and asked how we got here. I say "we" because the areas we disagree are not in the points of Calvinism.

    You and I share a common view in Calvinism (we both affirm the 5 points, we both affirm the "doctrines of grace") but we disagree on other theological issues.

    Why does your belief not yield charity? Why does it produce hostility?

    When I was in your shoes it was because I was dogmatic about Christian philosophies over that of Christian truth. I have reexamined that in my life

    I suspect it is the same with you. You ignore that we belong to the same "camp" in terms of the 5 points in a sort of blinded defense. But what about the gospel? Is this how Christians act towards each other?

    That is the question of the thread. What good us your faith if it does not produce a more godly you?
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    :Laugh

    I may be getting old but I'm not that old. You have a very vivid imagination, @Iconoclast . In the future please leave me out of your creative recollections.

    I am trying to be charitable while discussing topics that interest me. While you may have been inventive to get a rise out of me, false claims can actually be a stumbling block to me. Let's keep the discussion honest, OK? Pretend your actions matter because they do.

    I never claimed the Baptist Board slienced anyone, much less thanked them for it.

    In the interest of honesty, let's put our cards on the table -

    1. I affirm the 5 points of Calvinism (the doctrines of grace). It is offensive for you to claim otherwise simply because we disagree on another topic.

    2. I understand Calvinism (I studied it at a graduate level probably longer than you have been Reformed). This includes historic Calvinism and the 5 points. You do not know what I understand and what I do not understand - nor I you.

    3. This thread is not about Calvinism but about a segment of Calvinists. Stop pretending any critique is an assault on the whole.
     
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  9. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Nope. It's all about a time and place for everything. The young Calvinists think it should be discussed everywhere and all the time.
     
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  10. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    You know it's a problem when even James White is fed up with the nastiness of these Calvinist 'keyboard crusaders':



    "To be perfectly honest with you over the past number of years I've become pretty sick and tired of the Calvinist club....I was just looking at a comment from a quote-unquote 'Calvinist', a 'tR' (truly Reformed) guy last night....just Illustrated for me just what really turns me off about a lot of Calvinists today....I don't even want to be part of this 'club'....I find it grossly inconsistent that those who claim to embrace this theology could at the same time be arrogant, ungracious, unloving, unkind,and constantly drawing their swords and lopping people's Arminian ears off just for the bloodsport of it. Those of you on Facebook and Twitter and chat rooms and things like that to call yourself Calvinist, if you can't start acting with grace get back in your cage please for the good of the rest of us and for the good of everybody"
     
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  11. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    It seems JD Hall is mulling over a similar descriptor for himself. Having burned bridges with Southern Baptists (and so many others) with these sort of antics, he is now "wishing fundamentalism would let me back in":

    Confessions of a Calvinist Fundamentalist
    We don't want you either, JD!
     
    #11 Jerome, Jun 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Like I said James White came up with the phrase.
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Another vanishing post?? Let me ask MartinM if he requested it be taken I remember the last time that happened I was told that I imagine the post was there but then a week later you admitted the post was there so I guess it's some post have the vanishing ink on the keyboard and the computer when it printed it only lasts a certain time because when I went to answer and respond to that post I tried to find it by going to your profile and look at what you posted and I notice no one can get access to your posts why is that ? Unbelievable.
    Maybe Baptist board is near the Bermuda Triangle and every once in awhile to post just gets caught in there
     
    #13 Iconoclast, Jun 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
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  14. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I can help - I never thanked the Baptist Board for silencing anyone. I do not know where or how you got that idea. I really do not even know how that was supposed to look.

    Perhaps you think inventing disagreements is clever, but it is the type of ungodly behavior to which I alluded before. Engage the topic if you choose, but stop with the false accusations. There is no place on a Christian forum for that type of behavior. We are all in the same "Christian" camp.

    On your more honest (I think) question - I do not know why no one can access my posts. I assumed all you would have to do is click on my profile. I click on people's profile and then on "recent activity" or "posts". @Squire Robertsson or @rsr , can you help out on this one?
     
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  15. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Do you have a reference?

    I've heard R.C. Sproul also use the phrase and did not know James White came up with it.
     
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes...it was when I was speaking with him years ago
     
  17. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    #5

    It's your fault Jon. You aren't smart enough to understand Calvinism and that makes Calvinists arrogant, short-tempered, and surly.
     
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  18. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    No posts have been deleted on this thread.
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Hello Squire, it might not be this thread as we have 4 or 5 open on similar topics .
    If you can look at edits and deletes of a certain poster you will find it.
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    It was preordained.
     
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