Regeneration Before Faith

Ephesians 1:13 says:
in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth -- the good news of your salvation -- in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, - Young's literal translation.

It seems to say we were placed in Christ after we heard the gospel and then were sealed with the Holy Spirit after we believed.

So if we only receive the Spirit after we believe how are we regenerated before faith by the Spirit???

Is this a correct interpretation of the verse?:tonofbricks:

 

In John 6:44 the final pronoun "him" does not have for its immediate antecedent the term "man" but "him" that is drawn. The one being raised is the one being drawn. The one being drawn always comes because you cannot be drawn without coming. The only differnce between drawn and coming is cause and effect. The father is the cause or drawing power whereas coming is the effecct and one cannot exist without the other because of the very meaning of the term used here for "draw." It always results in the object coming if GOD is the cause.

John 6:45a is a further explanation of what it means to be drawn. To be drawn means to be taught by God. Notice how many are "taught" by God - "ALL" not "SOME." Your problem is to define who "ALL" refer to! Whoever you apply it to it means "ALL" not "some."

John 6:45b defines what it means to be taught by God. Since ALL are taught by God what does that mean? It means they have "heard" from God and they have "learned" from God. How many have? "ALL" and how many come to Christ "EVERYONE" that has been taught comes.

What you are doing my friend is twisting the words to suit your theory. What I have given you above cannot be honestly refuted if you stick to the language.

The latter part further defines what it MEANS to be taught by God it is the ability to have "heard" and "learned"

 

There was nothing in my statement that would lead anyone to think it's universalism. You obviously have nothing of value for a comment. You then go on to accuse me of your own tatics of word definition.

Here you go;
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Wrong and you don't have a scripture for it. Jn 17:12 says Judas was chosen and given. By the way all Jews have been chosen. You have not been chosen until you have Christ.

Judas was chosen and drawn he had to have been otherwise, he would not have followed Christ for three years. You haven't got a leg to stand on here my friend. There is no scripture that says he wasn't chosen but there is evidence of his drawing and being chosen. and he certainly came to Christ to follow as all Christians do.

Judas was a Jew and all Jews have been chosen for Salvation. Gentiles are not chosen for Salvation until they believe in Christ. Christ is the way, not election.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

No man comes to Jesus unless He is drawn by God. You don't agree?

You said; "It says we are chosen before the foundation of the world."

Just because you interpret it that way doesn't make it so.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Notice it doesn't say we are chosen any other way but in Him. You seem to want to skip over the "in Him" part and come back to it later. It's plain as day you just need to believe it.
You and I were not in Him before the foundation of the world. If we had been we would have been born with out sin. Rightly dividing the word will change your position. Try asking God for the truth instead of some dead guy like Calvin, Luther or, Augustine. Knowledge has increased a hundred fold since these guy were walking around.
MB

 

I'm sorry, but that is pure nonsense. Calvinism separates vs. 44 from 45, and this is where you make your error. Verse 45 is a continuation of verse 44 and more fully explains it. Jesus is speaking of those who "come" not of those drawn.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jesus is speaking of those who come to him in both verses 44 and 45. In verse 44 he explains that those who come were drawn, and in verse 45 he explains how a person is drawn, through the scriptures. Those who listen to and learn from God's word are drawn and come.

But it does not say all who are drawn come. Many times in the scriptures it shows God calling or drawing men who do not come.

All who come will be raised up the last day- True

All who are drawn will be raised up the last day- False

I have already showed you in Hosea chapter 11 where God specifically says he drew these Jews, but they rebelled and backslid from him.

Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Hos 11:4 I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them.

God called these Jews and drew them with love. But they refused and pulled away.

Hos 11:7 And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt him.

So, here you have in scriptures where God clearly says he was drawing the Jews, but they resisted him and backslid away. This proves that man can resist God's drawing.

But those who do not resist the drawing and come will be raised up the last day.

 

And this is a perfect example of you interpreting scripture through the lens of your doctrine. John 6:44 does not say all who are drawn will come, but because you have been taught Irresistable Grace this is how you falsely interpret this verse. It is error.

 

"John 6:45a is a further explanation of what it means to be drawn." - Dr. Walter

Do you have a reading problem? I explicitly stated that verse 45 is a "further explanation" of verse 44 and yet you deny I understand or said that. I suggest you carefully reread what I said before responding.

My friend either you cannot understand English or you are simply not interested in truth but in arguing pure sillyness. It is obvious since you go to the very texts that do not use the same term found in John 6:44. Look at the Septuigent or Greek translation of the Old Testament texts you are using and you will see that neither the Greek term or the Hebrew term are eqivilent in meaning with the term used in John 6:44. However, this is how you deal with scripture by jumping out of the context and running to passages that have no bearing on the meaning of a particular term used in a particular context. You mix apples with oranges and as long as you do that you can prove anything you like.

However, those in Hosea were drawn with "love" but those in John 6:44-45 were drawn INTERNALLY by instruction that they both heard and learned. Apples and oranges but you don't care do you??? The former was an EXTERNAL drawing while the latter is an INTERNAL drawinng thus they are not the same, not the same terms, not the same context.

 

jbh28, you are correct here, we are chosen or elect "in Christ". But this is not the official Calvinist position. They believe a man is chosen or elected outside of Christ, and then given to Christ.

But you see, to be chosen or elected in Christ means one of two possibilities.

1) We existed before the foundation of the world and believed in Christ, or

2) God could foresee who would believe in Christ and chose and elected them.

I believe #2, that God in his foreknowledge could see the future and those who would believe on Jesus when he was revealed to them, and elected them.

But this is not the official Calvinist position, I will show you a few quotes from Calvinists that shows they believe a person was elected outside Christ and then afterward were given to Jesus.

James White said;

Now, read that statement very carefully. James White is saying that God chose him not because he believed in Jesus, but solely because of his mercy and grace, and after choosing him gave him to Jesus.

Look what John MacArthur said;

Notice carefully that John MacArthur says were are chosen "to belong" to Him (Jesus Christ). That is very significant, he is not saying we are chosen because we believe in Jesus, he is saying we are chosen in order that we believe in Jesus.

In fact, John MacArthur cannot even explain why he was chosen. It is all a big mystery to him.

But a non-Cal knows why we are chosen or elect, we are chosen or elect because we have put our trust in Jesus.

John Calvin said the same;

Can you follow what Calvin is saying here? He is saying that God had a secret love for us, even before we believed in Christ.

Anybody who believes this cannot help but feel a little special. For some reason, God loved them more than the non-elect and chose them and elected them from the foundation of the world, that he could give them to his Son Jesus.

This is actually saying you are saved through some merit of your own. Oh, no Calvinist will say this, but it is an unavoidable conclusion. God must have liked you better than other people for some unknown reason.

 

Does "all" mean "some" to you? Does "everyone" mean "some" to you? How many shall be taught in verse 45a? "ALL" or "SOME"?? If "all" then "ALL" of who??? Jesus is quoting an Old Testament prophet where the answer is found in Jeremiah 31:34 where Jeremiah talks about "ALL" the people of the New Covenant:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This same NEW COVENANT promise is found in Isaiah 54:23 where "all" is qualified by "thy children" with the result that they "all" have "great peace" as a consequence.

As John 6:45 demands by definition that the drawing in verse 44 is an INTERNAL WORK OF GOD so that "EVERYONE" being taught both hears and learns and comes.

Hosea 11 is not an internal but an external drawing. Hosea has nothing to do with hearing and learning from God but rejecting offered love by God.

 

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

So your saying that Judas wasn't drawn. However he managed to come to Christ on His own and follow Him for three years.

Can you prove Judas never came to Christ and followed Him for three years? I just proved that he could not come to Christ unless he was drawn. Yet He did.
I just love it when others quote scripture.

Well strongs disagrees with your explannation.
G3956
πᾶς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

The word "all" is all inclusive. I know the word "men" wasn't there but added by translators. It doesn't make any difference. Should you really redefine the Word of God to make it fit your doctrine?.

Actually none of the disciples believed in Christ until He appeared to them after His resurrection. Peter denied Him three times Thomas couldn't believe until he could see the risen Jesus and inspect Him for himself. They all scattered in fear. Scatter as they did, they all denied Him. None of the disciples were saved until after they received the Holy Ghost. There is nothing to suggest they already had Him

It's my Berean attitude. I check the scriptures daily to see if what I'm told is true. What you have told me doesn't agree with scripture. Maybe you should follow your own advice. Especially since Calvinism is an extra biblical doctrine. The bulk of which isn't supported by scripture.

MB

 

Well, scholars disagree with you and agree with me. They say the word drawn in John 6:44 has the same exact meaning as drew in Hosea 11:4.

Here is what Trench said on the word drawn in John 6:44. Notice he compares it directly to the word drawn in Jeremiah 31:3, which is the exact same word used in Hosea 11:4

So, Trench says the word drawn in John 6:44 carries the same meaning as the word drawn in Jeremiah 31:3 and the word drew in Hosea 11:4 which means an allurement, an enticing through love, not being carried by force.

And notice when Matthew Henry discusses the word drew in Hosea 11:4 he references John 6:44 and also says this drawing is not one of force, but of attracting men through love, through allurment and enticing.

So, scholars agree with me, and disagree with you.

 

Well, I am glad you have a Berean attitude. Let me put that attitude to the test.

I am saying and Jesus is saying in John 6:65 that Judas was not drawn to Christ in the sense John 6:44-45 defines being drawn. The drawing here is defined to be an INTERNAL work by the Father where a person hears and learns in the sense of the prophets quoted by Jesus in John 6:45 (Isa. 54:13 and Jere. 31:33-34). Therefore "all" in verse 44 refer to New Covenant redeemed people. "ALL" not some are "taught" of God and "EVERYONE" thus taught as defined in hearing and learning come to Christ.



Judas was drawn to Christ for PERSONAL gain. He was a theif. He did not come to Christ for spiritual gain. John 6:65 flatly provides the reason that Judas never beleived in Christ as the bread of life because he was never drawn in the sense of drawing as defined in verses 44-45 which when reduced to the bottom line means the Father did not "give unto" him the ability to savingly beleive in Christ (vv. 64-65). Jesus simply fulfilled Old Testament prophecy concering Judas and called him in keeping with the prophecies He knew and intentionally fulfilled.

Strongs concordance can only give you the term and its meaning. It cannot give you the way it used grammatically. I gave you its grammatical meaning by pointing out that it is without the definite article and when "pas" or "pasa" is without the definite article it stresses characterization as in "all classes" or "all kinds" thus not all men without exception but all without distinction of class or kind. This was appropriate for the context as some other class or kind of men were seeking Christ which the Jews did not think appropriate for an orthodox Jew to associate with as gentiles were considered unclean. For example look at Peter's statement when God had to show him three times a vision just to get him to go to a gentile house:


And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

No, all of his disciples but Judas believed in him as the Christ (Savior Messiah) and the Son of God (Mt. 16:16-17; John 6:

Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.


Finally,

 

MB, you are correct. In fact, John chapter 6 shows many men who were drawn to Christ and followed him left him.

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Note that in John 6:67 Jesus asks his disciples if they will also go away? That would be a ridiculous question if a man were not able to resist his drawing. And many people, who the scriptures themselves call "his disciples" left him.

And then in verse 70 Jesus himself says Judas was chosen.

You know, I am not sure election and being chosen even necessarily is speaking of salvation, but service. The Jews were God's chosen or elect, and it was their job to keep the scriptures.

Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

The greatest reason God chose the Jews was to keep the oracles of God.

And Judas was chosen because Jesus knew he would betray him and fulfill the scriptures (John 6:70-71).

So, I am beginning to believe that election applies to service, not salvation.

 

It is not that Judas was not drawn, he followed Christ for 3 years. I agree with you that he was a thief and was seeking gain.

Judas could have been saved. He repented. He was sincere, he was truly sorry for what he did, so much so that he went out and hanged himself. So you can't say that he wasn't truly remorseful for betraying Jesus.

But he never came to Jesus. He could have. All he had to do was get down on his knees and ask Jesus to forgive him. He most likely was convinced he could not be forgiven, sin can do that to a man, and this was certainly the worst sin any man could commit. But even when Judas was betraying Jesus, Jesus loved him and called him friend. Judas could have been saved if he would have believed Jesus's words.

But you are still interpreting scripture through Calvinistic glasses. There is not shown a general and effectual calling as you say in the scriptures. That is a man-made invention.

As I said in another post, your doctrine teaches that God calls some men with a powerful, effectual call, and calls other men with an ineffectual, powerless, general call.

I don't know how anybody who believes in God can believe God can speak ineffectual, insincere, and powerless words. He literally spoke the universe into existence. God cannot say powerless words.

You actually believe that God tells men to come who he has no intention of saving. This would make God a liar. God does not lie or mislead men, if he invites them, it is ALWAYS sincere. You believe this general call is powerless. That is almost obscene, God cannot speak powerless words, and I am amazed any Christian could believe that for a second.

You ought to think twice before you go around teaching that God speaks powerless words.

 

Trench correctly gives Jeremiah 31:3 where the Septuigent does use the same word as Jesus uses in John 6:44. However, Jeremiah 31:3 is the preface of verses 33-34 where God is talking about His covenant people which Jesus refers to in John 6:45 in quoting the prophets. Hence, this drives a nail in your Arminian coffin and buries it forever because the "all" who are taught are God's NEW covenant redeemed and none of them are lost as verses 33-34 clearly teach:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Therefore "all" in John 6:45 means "all" and "everyone" in John 6:45 means "everyone" both of which terms Jesus directly applies to this Old Testament guarantee of salvation to "ALL" of the elect new covenant people of God in Jeremiah 31:32-34 which are the same in Isa. 53:14 because "all" who are taught in Isaiah 53:14 obtain "great peace" with no exceptions. This is what Jesus means by "draw" and "all" who are thus drawn are saved and have great peace according to the very prophetic reference Jesus gives to explain drawing.

Neither Henry or Trench mention Hosea 11:4. Although Hosea 11:4 uses the same Hebrew word as Jer. 31:3 the Greek septuigent does not use the same Greek words in those two passages. The Greek septuitgent uses the same word Jesus used in Jeremiah 31:3 but uses another word in Hosea 11:4.

However, you may be right that the passage in Hosea 11:4 and that in Jeremiah 31:3 are both designed to be applicable to Israel not immediately but in regard to election of the salvation of future Israel under the new covenant and so will be effectual unto salvation as described in Jeremiah 31:32-34. Jesus applied it to the prophetic salvation of "ALL" Israel in John 6:45 in his Old Testament quotation. This would be the same "all" in the prophetic reference in Romans 11:26 "ALL" Israel shall be saved.

So your application is not the designed application of this prophecy and Jesus places it in the designed application of effectual salvation under the New Covenant (Jere. 31:32-34 with Isa. 53:14).

I will go with the Old Testament prophetic designed application rather than yours and I will go with Christ's direct application to effectual New Covenant application in John 6:45 and his reference to Isa. 53:14 and Jere. 31:33-34 rather than your application of it.

 

Winman, we have already been over this. You refuse to accept the definition of drawn. I proved you wrong and you had no response to my rebuttal .

TRUE, if they didn't come, they were not drawn.

TRUE, otherwise they wouldn't not have been drawn to Christ.

As I said, you either must change the definition of the word "drawn" or you can understand the context of John 12 means all men both Jews and Gentiles, not all men exclusively.

agree

Again, your definition is in error. Why do you repeat something that has been shown in error. You would be terrible at a real debate. If your point is refuted(as your's has been) you must respond and not just keep repeating yourself.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/draw

 

Are you implying that people can lose their salvation? John 6 clearly says that all that come are the ones that are drawn(by simple definition of the word) and they all will be raised up in the last day. So no, a Christian will not come to Christ and leave, he will be raised up. Jesus will lose none.

It depends on the context. There are different choosings/elections spoken of in the Bible. Here, Jesus is speaking of choosing his disciples, not about Salvation.

There are some places that is what election is about, others like Ephesians 1 is about Salvation. It depends on the context.

 

You are correct that God is speaking of Jews who will come to the Lord in the last days in Jeremiah. But this is not saying all that are drawn will come, even in that instance. Only 144,000 will believe, the rest will perish.

You just don't get get, saying all that come are drawn is not the same as saying all that are drawn will come. The scriptures do say all that come were drawn, but it never says all that are drawn will come. Hosea 11 is proof of that, but you will not accept it. God clearly says he drew these people, and the word drawn is exactly the same word used in Jeremiah 31:3, but they pulled back and backslid from him.

And in Matthew 22 Jesus himself clearly said that God calls men who refuse to come.

Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

I could show you dozens of verses where God calls men and they refuse to listen and come. You don't want to know the truth, you wish to hold to your doctrine. It is like telling a Jehovah's Witness about hell, no matter how much evidence you show them, they twist the scriptures to argue it away. It may sound harsh, but in my opinion that is exactly what you are doing here.

Jesus said he wished to gather (which implies action) the Jews under his wings as a mother hen does her chicks, but they refused.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

God and Jesus are not passive here, they are actively trying to gather the Jews as a mother hen does her chicks, but they rebelled and would not come to him.

That word gather means:

1) to gather together besides, to bring together to others already assembled

2) to gather together against

3) to gather together in one place

It shows action on God's part. He is sincerely trying to draw and call the Jews, but they resist him.

You just go right on explaining scripture away.

 

So then, does God call everyone with an effectual call?

God is sincere. He will save anyone that wants to be saved.

Do you believe God will save everyone, or will his words not be effectual to everyone?

 

I have to go to work, so this is my last word today.

Yes, all who come were drawn. But not all that are drawn come.

I'll say this again, all cherries are red, but not everything that is red is a cherry. You just can't seem to discern the difference here, or else you willfully do not want to understand the difference.

Those who are drawn and come to Christ will be raised up. Those who are drawn, but do not come will not be raised up.

I have to go to work, but I am tired of playing this game with you, you understand what I am saying, but refuse to acknoledge the truth. That's your problem, not mine.

 

Is Judas coming to Christ as a disciple the same as those that come to Christ as mentioned in John 6 :37-44? If so, then Judas will be raised up in the last day? It would mean that Judas was saved. The coming that Judas did wasn't a spiritual coming to Christ as mentioned in John 6:37-44, but a physical coming as a disciple.

The word all means all of something. Context determines that something. In John 12, it means all types of peoples(both Jews and Gentiles)