Relationship of Jn 6:44-45 with 6:64-66

That has no bearing on the statement. The verse does not say those who do not come were not drawn.

 

I did just that by showing a converse and inverse of an absolute truth statement cannot be given as also absolute truth.

That is not what the text is saying, that is what YOU are saying the text says. Big difference.

 

I don't think anyone is denying that the Word of God is His method of speaking to us.

Remember, when these things were said, Jesus was here in the flesh and "coming to Him" had a physical component to believing in Him as He was orally revealing things not yet fully revealed.

Now in the 21st century, when folks "come to Christ" it is through the Spirit inspired words of the apostolic witness of the NT.

So the Word can be read or heard by an individual but if not revealed by the Father through the illumination of the Spirit (in this age as opposed to Christ in the flesh before the giving of the Spirit) one will continue on in blindness.

Those who are taught by the Father through the Spirit's ministry of the reproval of sin and the enlightenment of the Word of truth will be drawn to the light - Jesus Christ ("I am the light of the world" John 8:12).

Even at that however, this post does not address the responsibility of man in this "drawing" whether active or submissive.

HankD

 

Well, some Calvinists teach that a person can be regenerated as an infant before they can read, write, or have faith in God's word.

So, if R.C. Sproul believes what his assistant V.A. Voorhis believes, then they both believe a person can be born again, regenerated, made spiritually alive without the word of God.

The scriptures say otherwise. In Hebrews 6 it speaks of men who have been enlightened, have been partakers of the Spirit, who have tasted of the good word of God but are lost.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

You have 2 possibilities here that I can think of:

#1 a person can be saved and lose their salvation

#2 a person can be enlightened by the Holy Spirit and yet not be saved.

I personally believe #2 is the answer. I believe an unregenerate man can be enlightened by the word of God and the Holy Spirit to clearly understand that he is a sinner worthy of death, and that Jesus died to pay his sin, and that he must trust Jesus to save him, but this man refuses Jesus. I believe that this verse could be teaching that this man will be hardened, he will never again be brought again to this point of decision or repentance.

If there is another possibility, I cannot think of it.

 

I am fully aware that the writer was not speaking directly to his listeners as he said, "But beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though thus we speak".

That does not negate the fact that the writer (probably Paul) speaks of people who have been enlightened, have partaken of the Holy Ghost, who have tasted of the word of God..., who fall away.

In the parable of the sower, Jesus said his word was sown in the heart of the wayside soil.

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

I don't think the writer would write about an impossibility. I believe it to be a clear warning. The scriptures speak of others who fall away from the faith. If a person who is enlightened cannot possibly fall away, then why mention it?

You twist the scriptures here. Jesus showed the type of soil to be the responsibility of the hearer, not God. Immediately after telling this parable he said:

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

 

Well, I disagree, I believe this is speaking of persons who have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit and the word of God, yet do not commit themselves to Christ.

And Matthew Henry believed very similar.

I did not develop my interpretation of this passage from Henry, in fact I was a bit surprised that his views were so similar to mine.

This is a problem for Calvinism, because Calvinism teaches the unregenerate cannot possibly understand spiritual teachings. But the scriptures show the unregenerate man can to at least a small degree understand.

I agree fully that a person cannot lose their salvation, although I believe in preservation of the saints, not perserverance.

 

And as concerning the soils in the parable of the sower and in Hebrews 6. I disagree with your interpretation.

It is understandable that a person would believe the farmer responsible for the condition of the soil that he sows seed in. In practical real life conditions this is very true.

But in the parable of the sower, Jesus showed the hearer (the soil) is responsible for their own condition.

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Verse 12 shows those that hear the word, but do not receive or believe it. It is like seed falling on hard, trodden down soil. It does not penetrate, but lies on the surface and the birds come and steal it away.

Verse 13 shows those that hear the word and receive it. I personally believe this is a saved person. But they fall away when difficulties or tribulations come along.

Verse 14 also shows persons who hear and believe (receive) the word of God, but let the cares and pleasures of life distract them. They never bear fruit.

But verse 15 are those that hear and believe and apply the word of God to their lives. These are disciples who live for Christ and proclaim his word, bringing new converts into the church (bearing fruit).

So, Jesus clearly shows the hearer (the soil) responsible for hearing, believing, and applying the word of God to their lives. And immediately after explaining the parable, Jesus tells his disciples to be very careful to what they listen to and believe. He promises to those who will listen and believe his words, more will be given. But to those who do not believe what has been revealed to them, even that revelation that was given them will be taken away. I believe this especially to be speaking of the seed that fell by the wayside.

Luke 18:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

And in Hebrews 6 it is the same.

Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

When God pours rain upon the earth, he expects and demands results. This rain represents his word and grace. He gives his word and a measure of grace to all men. Even a Calvinist must admit the word of God is available to all men.

But that soil that brings forth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing. Perhaps this is speaking of a saved person who is not lost, but their unfruitful works will be burnt, but they will be saved.

1 Cor 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

So, perhaps this is speaking of a saved person who wastes their Christian life in unprofitable works which shall be burnt up, and they shall receive not rewards.

But I also believe this passage in Hebrews 6 is speaking of persons who have heard the gospel and been illuminated to understand it. They understand fully that they are sinners in danger of perishing. They understand that Jesus died for their sins and rose from the dead. And they understand they need to trust Christ for salvation. But because of a love of sin they turn away and reject Christ. And I believe this passage is showing that a person who does this once and for all shall never be brought to this point of repentance again, they are hardened. From this point on, when they hear the gospel they will be more hardened against it. It is like Pharaoh, the more grace he received from God in seeing the plagues, instead of repenting, became more and more stubborn and obstinate. And at a certain point, God gives them up or over to a reprobate mind.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Calvinism teaches the unregenerate cannot understand anything spiritual, but Romans chapter 1 shows all men have some knowledge and revelation from God and are therefore responsible to respond positively to him. But to those who stubbornly resist God's grace, at some point he will give them over to believe a lie and deception.

2 Thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So, I believe that in both the parable of the sower, and the soil shown in Hebrews 6, it is the hearer that is held responsible for the condition of the soil.