Religion of Envy

I agree with you to some extent at least, Singer.

After all, it's God who saves us, not perfect theology.

If you are drowning and someone throws you a rope from a helicopter and you grab on and are lifted to safety, are you saved by your extensive knowledge about your rescuer? No, of course not. You are saved because you took hold of the rope and trusted them to lift you to safety and because they were able to do that. You might not even know their name...

(No, it's a not a perfect analogy )

Helen/AITB

 

Glorious,
I never said that one had to have a full grasp of the trinity to be saved. My contention is that one must believe in the deity of Jesus Christ in order to be saved. If Jesus Christ is not God, then you have the wrong Jesus. You are right in that many do not understand the concept of the trinity right away. Let me offer an example.

I have a ten year old daughter who has been saved now for about three years. I asked her "Who is Jesus Christ?" Her immediat reply was, "He is my Saviour." So I asked again, "I am glad that He is your Saviour, but who is He besides your Saviour?" She thought just for a second, and then answered: "God!"
When asked about the trinity, she did not understand the concept of the trinity, though she did understand that there was a: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.

If a ten year old can understand that Jesus Christ is God her Saviour, than I would not expect that it is too much for others to believe the same thing. It is not a difficult concept to believe. Besides that we believe it by faith, even if we don't understand. I don't just believe the things I understand. I believe what the Bible teaches, whether I understand it or not, because the Bible is the Word of God. I believe it by faith. I don't understand completely the eternal existence of God, but I certainly believe it. How can a finite man comprehend an infinite God? We are not asked to understand, we are asked to believe.
DHK

 

Believing (faith) is meaningless unless your faith has an object. The object of oour faith is Jesus Christ. It is the Jesus Christ as defined by the Bible. If that Jesus Christ is none other than God Himself, than that person cannot be saved. A SDA can no more be saved than a Muslim or a Hindu, because they believe not that Jesus Christ is God.
DHK

 

How in the world could a SDA mother who is teaching her children
about Jesus while reading from the KJV bible...........

GET THE WRONG JESUS ??????

Be reasonable now, DHK.

 

How can a Muslim memorize the entire KJV New Testament and still believe that Jesus is only a prophet, and that Mohammed is a greater prophet. I am being reasonable.
DHK

 

For all those who have fallen victim to DHK's way of expaining my beliefs:

He is wrong.

The SDA church teaches a Trinity.

They didn't used to. And myself and many other SDA's feel that this move on their part, that JUST took place in 1980 is an act of apostacy.

The Bible doesn't teach a trinity.

I don't believe it.

His last few posts in reference to my beliefs are a GROSS misrepresentation of my ACTUAL beliefs.

Go read the Trinity thread and see for yourself what I believe.

I am not a Muslem, JW, or antichrist.

I have stated what the Bible says, and he just can't seem to reconcile that with what his 'tradition of men' teaches him.

That's not my problem.

I believe in Jesus, as He is explained in the Bible. The Son of the Living God. You know what Jesus would say to that statement?

Matt 16: 15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

DHK,
I would appreciate it if you would refrain from misrepresenting me in this forum.

It is un Christ like, and bad manners.

God Bless

 

(DHK)
A SDA can no more be saved than a Muslim or a Hindu, because
they believe not that Jesus Christ is God.

(Singer)
Correct me if I'm wrong DK, but isn't it appealed unto us to
"believe that Jesus rose from the dead" and not that Jesus is God. ?

(DHK)
How can a Muslim memorize the entire KJV New Testament and still
believe that Jesus is only a prophet, and that Mohammed is a greater
prophet. I am being reasonable.

(Singer)
See what you said...? Muslims choose to believe that Jesus is NOT
their savior. You and I and SDAs, 2x2s and Catholics choose to
believe that Jesus IS our savior.

Faults arise when SDA, 2x2, Catholic etc. become exclusive in their claims
that they have some special appointment from God to deliver the gospel
to mankind. SDAs cling to Sabbath worship, 2x2s cling to their claim of
having the only "Truth", Catholics lay claim to their appointment through
Peter as the Rock / leader of the church that will prevail. DHK makes claim
that it is important to understand that Jesus is God.

Those are all faults in my book.

 

DHK,

The following verses are used extensively in witnessing with
John 3:16 as being the most popular with Evangelicals. There is
no mention of Jesus as God and no mention of the need to
UNDERSTAND that Jesus is God.

What verses do you use in witnessing and preaching that give
evidence to our need to Understand that Jesus is God ?

1 John 5:11,12
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this
life is in his Son.

He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son
of God hath not life.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Zinger

 

I use all of those verses and more, Singer. Please read the trinity thread. In essence 3AM believes in two gods. One is called the Most High God. This she denies is Jesus. Jesus is not God, she says. Thus to her, Jesus must be some lesser God. If Jesus is not God, the Most High God, she believes in heresy, and as Neal has put it, Jesus is only a special man. I am sorry, but a special man cannot be a Saviour even if you attach the title the Son of God. If He is not God Himself He cannot save. 3AM denies the deity of Christ--that Jesus is the Most High God. Ask her yourself.
DHK

 

Quote by DHK:
I use all of those verses and more, Singer. Please read the trinity thread.
In essence 3AM believes in two gods. One is called the Most High God.
This she denies is Jesus. Jesus is not God, she says. Thus to her, Jesus
must be some lesser God. If Jesus is not God, theMost High God, she
believes in heresy, and as Neal has put it, Jesus is only a special man.
I am sorry, but a special man cannot be a Saviour even if you attach
the title the Son of God. If He is not God Himself He cannot save.
3AM denies the deity of Christ--that Jesus is the Most High God.
Ask her yourself.

(Singer)

Well first of all it's much impolite to talk about 3AM this way. I can
sense her sincere desire to serve God, enjoy salvation for her family
and herself and to tell others.

Can you really imagine God meeting her on judgement day
and saying:

"Sorry blondie, there's a trick to this salvation thing
and even though you believe and were baptized, lived a good
Christian witness in Jesus' name, you didn't fully understand that
Jesus and I are One. You didn't understand that believing in the
shed blood of My Son is not enough to allow you forgiveness of your
sins. Therefore you will be tormented in Hell forever...you evil sinner !! "


I also can't imagine God saying "You shall not receive eternal life because
you didn't rest on the Sabbath"

Or....."You shall not receive eternal life because you didn't belong to
the right church"

Or......"You shall not receive eternal life because you didn't go to church".

 

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge

Here Jesus again declares His divinity to the Jews. In verse 24 He says "If ye believ not that I am He (God), ye shall die in your sins.

3AM will face the same judgement. These are the words of Jesus not mine.

You have referred to the judgement of God. Here is what it says.

Mat.7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There are many that call Jesus Lord, and Jesus will say unto them: "I never knew you, depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Anyone that believes that Christ is not God is working iniquity.

If Mother Theresa, in spite of all the good works that she did, never trusted Christ as her Saviour, she would be in Hell today. Good works do not save.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast. (Eph.2:8,9)
DHK

 

Evidently the people 'knew' who Jesus was, so my question is, "Why did Jesus say He never *knew* them?

Any comments?

MEE

[ April 09, 2003, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: MEE ]

 

DHK,

Jesus is Lord.

He is MY Lord.

He is MY Savior.

He is NOT My God.

I have the same God that Jesus has, and the same Father as well, THROUGH Jesus, the Son of God.

You show us ALL where it says ANYWHERE that we MUST believe that Jesus is GOD to be saved.

That Jesus MUST be God in order to save?

WHERE is THAT in the Bible?

 

I have showed you in the trinity thread, and countless of times have asked you to respond to my post, but you have refused. What more can I say.
DHK

 

For all to see, the context of the passage in which DHK uses to sling insults at me, and those who believe as I do.

Jesus DID NOT claim to be God.

Read this discourse and see for yourselves.

John 8:12. Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
13. The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
14. Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
15. Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
19. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
20. These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
21. Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22. Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26. I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27. They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28. Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
30. As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47. He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
48. Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49. Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50. And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
51. Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54. Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55. Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

And WHAT did He claim to be from the 'beginning'?

The first recorded identification of Jesus as being anything other than just a 'special' man was the statement made BY HIS FATHER, God, who said 'this is my Beloved SON, in whom I am well pleased'.

So WHO is He?

The FATHER told us who He is.

Jesus told Peter, when he identified Jesus as the Son of the Living God, that SURELY flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but MY FATHER, which is in heaven.

Jesus is the Son, of the Living God.

In verse 58 He said that He was there before Abraham was. It DOES NOT say that He said He was the 'I AM'. In the Hebrew text when God said 'I AM' to identify Himself, that is ONE word 'Hayah' which literally means 'I exist'. Which is also what YHVH happens to mean. When Jesus said 'I am', it is two words, that actually MEAN 'I' and 'am' OR 'was, is, are, were'. So He said, that before Abraham came into existence, He existed. He didn't identify Himself as God, just because He said 'I am'. In other places where He said 'I am', and it is the same 2 greek words, it is simply excepted as Him stating that He 'is' something. Why make a 'special' meaning on this one?

God Bless

 

You are wrong, absolutely wrong. You have given pure speculation and opinion which cannot be backed up by anything but your own ideas. Any reputable scholar will tell you otherwise. Here is the meaning of John 8:58:

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
--The word used for “I Am,” is the same word used by Jehovah when He revealed himself to Moses in Exodus 3:14. He is the Great I Am, the Jehovah of the Old Testament. He is God. His claim to be Jehovah in this verse so angered the Jews that they took up stones and tried to kill him.
DHK

 

I have showed you in the trinity thread, and countless of times have asked you to respond to my post, but you have refused. What more can I say.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]You have YET to show where it says that we must believe that Jesus is GOD in order to be saved, and that Jesus MUST BE God, in order to have the power to save!

The reason you have nothing more to say, is because the thing that you are INSISTING is fact, you have no scriputral support for, so I can understand you inability to explain yourself.

That makes sense.

God Bless

 

I can imagine any SDA saying that either.

We don't believe that, or teach it, because it isn't in the Bible.

Salvation is by Grace through Faith.

NOT by works.

God Bless