Religious Liberty & Church/State Separation

After chewing on it, I guess if the Muslim boy wants to pray, let him pray. Nobody, however, is obliged to pray with him. As rsr said,

Then by all means, they should pray with no interference from the school's administration whatsoever. Here in VA there is a grass roots effort started by Christian students called the "Day of Prayer". Before school on that day whatever students wish join hands in a circle around the flag pole and pray. Margie could tell you more than I about this movement but I know that it does go on unimpeded by the school system at any level, from the local admnistartion right up to the governor.

Also, as for state hired chaplains I am in agreement that this is a definite no-no. Our church helps support the ministers in the state prisons. They receive no compensation from the corrections department.

Finally, trumpet was a good guess. I played all the way through the brass section in my time in High School. Our band at my military high school had a former West Point conductor who was merciless on us kids, but it sure made us proficient! We entered scores of parades every year and almost always won first place. That made us a self sufficient unit. That's better than all the sports teams did.

 

I heartily agree with both of you gentlemen. I had meant to make a couple posts on the "Seperation of Church and State" thread that Eagle started and never got to it. This is an issue on which I hold some very strong convictions. When this thread dies down, I have a few very good quotes concerning the issue that I will post on the other.

BTW, "Meet you at the pole" is indeed the proper name of the prayer movement.

 

On the subject of prayer... Are we not told not to draw attention to ourself as we pray as some do?... We are told to go in our closet and shut the door and pray to the Father in secret and our Father will hear us and reward us openly.

If I was in school now I could pray and no one would know I was praying but God. Are we suppose to draw attention to ourself and do the scriptures teach this or something else? When I am in church we pray openly before worship service as we have been taught in a congregational setting... What are others thoughts on this?... Can anyone really stop you from praying?... Brother Glen

 

Now you fellers go an' have an interestin' chat and didn't call to wake me up.

Bro. Glen. There are a couple of more reasons for voting the way I did about holding meetings in public facilities. And these have actually happened, not hypothetical. Years ago our association wanted to hold its annual session at one of the local schools. The superintendent of schools had allowed Methodist meetings, and Southern Baptist meetings. He wouldnt agree to let us hold our meeting in the school without agreement of the Director of the local Southern Baptist Association. We never asked again. In a more recent event (a year or so ago) they allowed a "crusade" led by Benny Hinn. Another example one of the school properties was no longer used by consolidation. The school property was sold to a local church at what was widely considered far below market value. So, when you get into these types of situations you can (and probably do) have a wide variety of people in decision making positions. If the decisions on who and who cant use facilities can not be made fairly, then they shouldn't be made at all.

As for the issue of school prayer, prayer at football games, etc. (This is basketball country, BTW). I agree with Glen it is more for show than for real intercession with the Sovereign of the Universe. To me, prayer is a very personal, private issue. I am not the most comfortable making prayer at church either. But I wouldn't, and know of no Primitive Baptist in these parts who would be in favor of prayer in the schools or in these more or less worldly events. I am very careful (or at least try to be) in prayer. I know lots of folks who will pray for just about anything, generally ignoring the manner in which Jesus taught us to pray. I think prayer is a very serious matter and not to be taken lightly. My great-grandfather was an Old Regular Baptist minister, and a bit of an odd character. He wore a hat constantly, except when he was in prayer or went to bed. This fellow died the day before I was born, so I don't remember him, obviously, but Dad said he even wore his hat when he was preaching.

As for the band issue. I do well to play the radio.

As for Christmas. It isn't an issue at my house or with my brethren in the church. We tend to ignore the whole thing.

I am going to play carpenter now. If you all have interesting things to say, give me a ring.

Jeff.

 

Brothers Glen and rsr -

I agree with your points about prayer. Yes, Christ told us to pray in secret as opposed to making a spectacle of oneself in public by praying loudly. However, there are examples of group prayer shown in the New Testament in Acts 1:14; 20:36; and 21:5. Also, the Old Testament has many passages that are lengthy congregational prayers. Two examples that come to mind are Solomon's dedication of the Temple and Ezra's prayer about intermarriage.

I also understand rsr's concerns about the sincerety of the prayer before a football game. As Robert said, "what do you pray for, that they don't get beat up too badly?" I'm sure that there are many cases of pregame prayers that fall into this category.

However, judging the intentions of another group's prayer is not the issue of the right involved. My concern lies in the allowance of the free exercise of group/public prayer to pray for whatever the believer has laid upon his heart.

There are issues that would be quite proper to be included in a prayer of high school athletes, IMO. For example, that their sportsmen's conduct on the field reflect a Christian character, that the Lord help them keep a proper perspective on what the game is, for self control in any anger that may result from the game, for the safety of the OTHER team, for any of their team, schoolmates or school staff that may be sick, absent, or injured, etc.

Perhaps a thread on prayer could be started in the theology forum for more perspective. I haven't seen one in some time and it is a practice that is misused, IMHO.

 

Careful, Jeff. Some of us have your phone number and stay up too late!

 

Thank you for starting this poll, rlvaughn.

Here's my beef: The atheists & anti-Christians have taken the "separation of church & state issue" and are beating Christians over the head with it!

Case in point (not far from where I live):

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,59617,00.html


Yet, it would seem to be okay for grade schoolers in California to learn all about Islam and dress in Muslim garb and have "pretend" jihads!

Where's the ACLU on this one?

Or for having a reading assignment that is pro-Islam at the UNC which was in the news last year?

Seems to me it's only Christians being discriminated against nowadays...the rest is permissible under the guise of political correctness?

 

It may be a lofty ideal to have "separation of church & state" even though that phrase is not in the Constitution. But that little phrase is going to end up doing Christianity in because we have drifted so far from our Judeo-Christian roots in this country, trying to keep that wall of separation high!

Here's something else. Remember the California school district teaching from the “ACROSS THE CENTURIES” Houghton Mifflin Social Studies Book - 7th grade 21st Century Edition ? It was defended by some on the left as only being a social studies book.

Well check this out - you can print off the PDF file. As far as I know this book is still being used in some public schools. (I'll research this further. )

I remember my uncle told us about a ruckus being raised against the school board in Jackson, Ohio about teaching Islam in public schools there, too. The news was in their local paper. The School Board did not back down, folks.

Muslims are given certain rooms to pray in during school hours during Ramadan in some places. Now in Florida they are excused off from public school on certain Muslim holidays.

Is all of this acceptable, or is it only Christians that must have separation of church & state?

From the above mentioned textbook:

http://www.blessedcause.org/7th_1.htm

I can list link after link where the "separation of church & state" is being violated, not by Christians who have the ACLU breathing down our necks, but by others!

And here's a link from the same Christian site that links to news stories about religion (not Christianity, of course) in public schools - if anybody is interested.

http://www.blessedcause.org/News.htm

My question is, why is it only Christianity that is discriminated against when it comes to separation of church & state??

You can click here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000690

and see how radical Islamists even have an inside track to the ear of President Bush & the White House via Carl Rove!

Separation of Church & State? I do believe it is a thing of the past....for Christians, anyway.

 

AMEN, rlvaughn, AMEN! Preach it. That was GREAT!

(PS: Never knew a rebuke could be so glorious! )

You just made my day!

 

Prayer at football games...
In years past, high school football in my area, as soon as the teams finished pregame warmup drills they went to their respective clubhouses, then there was a "Welcome," usually by a member of the 'Student Council,' then a reading of the "Sportsman's Creed" or something similar, then a prayer by a student (not known or announced how he or she was selected), then the school songs of both schools, then the National Anthem after the teams came back to the field.

When the action started, all these pregame 'rituals' were quickly forgotten-- God, country, "live clean and play hard" all took a back seat to "knock his head off!" I don't know if all this qualifies as a 'farce' or not, but there remains whatever need there was to do all these things, with the prayer only being eliminated. Has that changed one thing besides the prayer itself? No.

That may leave a question, though; such as: if a student is chosen (or volunteers) to speak anything over the public address system, be it a welcome, a 'thank you', or something along the line of a message of good will, if that student chooses to voice a prayer, is he going to be censored or have his mike turned off? A lot of left-leaning people support free speech and free religion, but they have difficulties in using them both at the same time.

If a prayer as a sanctioned public event infringes on the rights of those who believe there is no diety to pray to, then does playing the National Anthem infringe on the rights of non-Americans or those who advocate the overthrow of our current government?