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Featured Reparations

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Nov 15, 2019.

  1. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand your question. Are you referring to Ezra as the author or to the author calling for reparations for African Americans whose ancestors were forced into slavery?
    If the latter, then, yes he is misrepresenting Ezra.
     
  2. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    If you follow the Persian-Greco conflict you will note that Persia is moving supplies at the same time as giving Jews passage to Palestine. Having the temple rebuilt is a wonderful guise for movement of troops and supplies westward.
     
  3. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    The problem is that reparation is political. In the Old Testament, you read of nations conquered or defeated and the victor plundering their enemy (the spoils of war). There is no scriptural support for reparations in the way that Thabiti Anyabwile is proposing. A better question to ask is whether the Bible addresses this topic in a different way. It does if we are talking about how Christians are to treat each other. It does not when the context is about nations. As has already been brought up, the United States Federal government passed legislation and implemented programs that ostensibly were to benefit those in systemic poverty and who were denied equal opportunity, which included millions of Americans of African descent. Thabiti's article takes the passages he uses to defend reparations out of context. He does the same thing that black liberation theologians have been doing for decades.

    The bottom line? The reason you are not getting any "principles of reparations" in scripture is that there are none.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    The author uses Ezra as foundational to his establishing a principle that can be taught to the assembly.

    How do you perceive that he used the passage(s) inappropriately, and what better rendering could be made for those passages?
     
  5. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    That is beside the point. His checking for the document of Cyrus was as a result the Jews request to him to honour Cyrus' decree.
     
  6. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    I think his narrative is created by his personal desire for reparations. He then attempts to use Ezra as a prooftext. The king taxed his people, not for reparation to Jews, but because he was growing an army to attack Greece. The Jews were his cover for his bigger goal. God used that bigger goal to effectively fulfill his promise in bringing back and establishing a remnant in Israel. The passage is not about reparation. But, the author needs a prooftext for his own wishes.
     
  7. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    This is an interesting point that you made!

    Do the Scriptures not present any principle for guidance that can be taught the assembly?
     
  8. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    The assembly? Sure. Ephesians 4:28 can be used to teach those who used to steal to labor in order to bless others. However, that is in the context of the local church. Can that be applied outside the church? Yes. Can it be used to defend large-scale reparations? No.
     
  9. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Good.

    My own difficulty with using Ezra as a foundation is that is the only place in Scriptures, then neither principle nor even persuasion may be taken.

    For such to occur, as you know, there must be precept built upon precept...
     
    #49 agedman, Nov 16, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
  10. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    Well if you believe the current teaching on chronology,* Ezra was in the reign of Artaxerxes over 80 years after that account. i.e. Between Ezra ch 6 and ch 7 there is at least 80 years, Interesting eh?

    * I don't.
     
  11. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    ESV gives this chronology: Chronology of Ezra | ESV.org

    James B. Jordan from Theopolis Institute gives these words:
    The chronological problem in Ezra-Nehemiah boils down to this: On the one hand, the name lists in these two books lead us to expect that all the events in them took place in the reign of Darius; while on the other hand, the text calls the Persian emperor under whom Ezra and Nehemiah lived by the name "Artaxerxes," and Artaxerxes I (Artaxerxes Longimanus) reigned many years after Darius. We can resolve this problem one of two ways. The first is to strain the information given in the name lists in order to make it fit, this approach being the common one today. This gives us a long chronology for Ezra. The other way of resolving the problem is to hold that "Artaxerxes" in Ezra-Nehemiah is simply another name for Darius, giving us a short chronology. The long chronology is the establishment view today among both unbelieving and evangelical commentators. The short chronology has always been favored by Biblical chronologists.
    He goes on to devote three essays to this matter:
    (The Chronology of Ezra & Nehemiah, Part 1)
    (The Chronology of Ezra & Nehemiah, Part 2)
    (The Chronology of Ezra & Nehemiah, Part 3)


    It is worth pondering the views.
     
    #51 agedman, Nov 16, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
  12. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    I can appreciate wanting to make this non-political, but it is made such, or made moot in bringing up "the American practice of slavery" of the past. If you wish to discuss modern human trafficking or false imprisonment (through false witness or prejudice), then perhaps the discussion could move forward, but perhaps we already agree on those.

    What I would ask of anyone worried about reparations for "the American practice of slavery" of the past is whether they have in any way condoned, excused, advocated, practiced or participated in abortion. If they have, I would suggest they cease worrying about reparations and instead worry about those they have murdered or allowed to be murdered but cannot ever provide reparations to, only pay life for life. That realization should end the reparations discussion for practically all.
     
  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I just won't respond to any of your post then.
    MB
     
  14. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    What about Islamic slavery today?
     
  15. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Not what I desire!

    It is necessary to keep the focus of this specific thread away from the politics, and it search and discern how believers may give a Scripture answer rather than political.
     
  16. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Not the issue of this thread.

    What Scriptures can be used to establish principles in which the believers and assembly may use when addressing the topic.

    The OP and Post #16 quoted a well known author’s presentation.

    Some have made some very good points in rebuttal.

    What do the Scriptures actually teach that can be used as a principle?
     
  17. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Actually, the politics concerning reparations should be secondary to the Scripture principle(s).

    How can one set a standard before the assembly with no Scripture support?

    Political decisions void of a Scripture principle are subject to whims and emotions.

    Principles based on Scriptures do not easily change.
     
  18. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    OK, thanks. We are only talking about people who purchased African slaves in the USA and how Americans can pay reparations, right? I would add that the Islamic slave traders past & present have done nothing wrong because Islam teaches that slavery is okay, right? The obvious answer is to pass legislation to pay money to all blacks in the USA, right?
     
  19. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    If you were to do what I suggested instead of ignoring it, you might make some progress. Focus it on current issues: human trafficking, false imprisonment, and the like.

    You are not going to resurrect those who were enslaved or those who enslaved them. You are raising a moot issue leading to a deadend. The best you could do on that point is study the history of what was done at the time, why (or on what basis) it was done, and see what might have or should have been done differently.

    This pretending that nothing at all was ever done is a lie, no matter how much Scripture you throw at it. In your quest here, you are already buying into the politics of it whether you admit it or not.
     
  20. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Thats Tha I pointed out the Indian.
     
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