Repentance for Salvation?

Good example, however, if I just became a baker, I am going to have failures. I don't give up but keep on striving for perfection. Even at that I will have an occassional flop. That is much different than a pretender and I agree that some or even many church(es) have become infiltrated with those who "talk the talk" but don't consistently "walk the walk" (Monday through Saturday). Even at that I believe it is possible that there may be true children of God among them.

I keep thinking of the "shibboleth" passage when there are these pronouncements made concerning who is saved and who is not:

Judges 12

4 Then Jephthah gathered together all the men of Gilead, and fought with Ephraim: and the men of Gilead smote Ephraim, because they said, Ye Gileadites are fugitives of Ephraim among the Ephraimites, and among the Manassites.
5 And the Gileadites took the passages of Jordan before the Ephraimites: and it was so, that when those Ephraimites which were escaped said, Let me go over; that the men of Gilead said unto him, Art thou an Ephraimite? If he said, Nay;
6 Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand.​

Here we have the people of God, brethren, slaughtering each other because of a semantic disconnect. Though this is an infallible and innerrant historical record of Israel/Judah's Civil War, it is simultaneoulsy (IMO) a metaphor of many of these present day disputes.

James 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?​

1 Peter 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.​

While it is true that that we must keep the local church as sanitized from sin as possible, I believe that at least some promoters of the LS doctrine take the easy way out and exclude many brethren who are in need of the advocacy of Christ:

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.​

Consistant obedience to the word is a sign of maturity.

For babes in Christ and for those who stumble there is an accountability and duty not of the offender but upon those who are "spritual" and it's a duty of restoration not exclusion :

Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.​

Admittedly, exclusion sometimes becomes necessary but it is the last choice not the first.

HankD

 

We are closer in agreement than you think. I agree we should be doers of the word and not hearers only deceiving ourselves (James 1:22)

But you have to be careful. Obeying God's word is not where I get my assurance of salvation. Truth be told, if I based my assurance of salvation on my behaviour, I would be very worried.

My assurance for salvation comes by trusting God's word alone.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The scriptures say that whosoever calls upon the Lord shall be saved. I know I did that, I sincerely prayed and asked Jesus to forgive me and save me from my sins. Jesus said that whoever comes to him shall in no wise be cast out. I know I came to Jesus for forgiveness.

Years ago I had a good book by Curtis Hutson from the Sword of the Lord. He said that if he was not saved then God would lose more than him. If he died and went to hell, he would lose his soul, but God would lose his integrity.

I agree with that. The only way I cannot be saved is if Jesus is a liar. He gave his word to me, and I am depending 100% on his word. I am not depending on my behaviour.

My salvation is not dependent upon my faithfulness, it is dependent on Jesus's faithfulness. And I am glad it is that way, I know for a fact I cannot always be depended upon. But I can fully rely and depend on Jesus as he never fails.

If a person truly comes to Jesus in his heart, admitting he is a sinner and asking for forgiveness, that person is saved whether they appear to be so or not. Man can only see the outward appearance, God sees the heart.

Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracers cannot have the assurance I have from God's word. They do not believe they can call on Jesus for salvation or come to him. I do not worry about man's doctrine, when Jesus said "come unto me" I came. Jesus is not going to condemn any man who obeys his command and comes to him, I don't care what John Calvin or any other man says.

 

Appears to me as yet another one of those conundrums that rears its head when we mix the kingdom gospel with the gospel of grace.

I too see a lot of pretending going on in this world.

 

Yelp, seems to be a lot of victimizing going on lately. Why I even understand there might be some baptist churches adding confessional booths.

 

Doesn't happen often, but I am in agreement with Havensdad here, there is only one gospel. The gospel that Jesus and John the Baptist preached is the exact same gospel Paul preached, and the scriptures say that.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Paul also confirmed that the same gospel he preached was the same gospel preached to Abraham.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

There is only one gospel. The gospel of the kingdom, and the gospel of grace are one and the same.

 

Tell you what Winman, I will agree with you if you only will show where anyone taught before revealed through Paul the good news of the Body as the Bride of Christ, the indwelling Holy Spirit as earnest of salvation, the circumcision made without hands, the total free gift of salvation made available by the Faith of Christ, etc,,,all the mysteries.

How could Jesus Himself have taught the power of the resurrection before it happened?
I will tell you........
The only way one can feel the power of the resurrection was present before it happened is if one feels the power of the resurrection itself was placed on a select few before the foundation of the world.

Calvinist are some of the first (along with the romanist) to deny the difference between the kingdom gospel and the gospel of grace because it denotes a difference. They feel there cannot be a difference because everything was set in stone before the foundation of the world.

 

My daughter has a piano recital, but I will be back in a few hours. I will show you scripture that shows the gospel of the kingdom is no different from the gospel Paul preached. I have spent much time debating with dispensationalists in the past, I have plenty of scripture to show you.

 

Well, any Calvinist or Doctrine of Gracer here will tell you I am not a Calvinist (if they had a picture of me I'm sure they would use it for a dartboard), but I do not believe in multiple gospels. I do believe in dispensationalism to an extent, believing God has dealt with men differently at different times.

I don't have time to present much tonight, but I will say this, Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom as I'm sure you will agree. But did this gospel apply to the Jews only? No.

Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

So, was the gospel of the kingdom for the Jews only? No, it was to be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations.

Dispensationalists teach that the apostles were teaching if Israel accepted Christ, Jesus would restore the kingdom at that time. But the scriptures easily show this is not the case.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

It doesn't get any clearer than this, the disciples asked Jesus directly if he would restore the kingdom to Israel "at this time". But Jesus answered and said it was not for them to know the "times" (plural) or "seasons" (plural) which the Father hath put in his own power.

So, it was impossible that Peter was preaching that the kingdom would be restored if the Jews accepted Jesus as Peter did not know this.

And look what Peter did tell the Jews concerning Jesus's return.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Notice here that Peter said the heavens must receive Jesus until the "times" (plural) of restitution of all things.

Now you are a dispensationalist, how can you overlook both Jesus and Peter speaking of "times"?

So, Peter was not preaching the immediate return of Jesus to restore the kingdom if the Jews received Christ, he said that at least two ages or times must take place first. I personally believe this is the church age or times of the Gentiles and the tribulation or time of Jacob's trouble. Some disagree on this. There could possibly be three times as "times of the Gentiles" implies at least two times plus the "time of Jacob's trouble".

But either way, Peter was absolutely not preaching the immediate restoration of the kingdom if the Jews accepted Christ as many dispensationalists teach.

More later.

 

....naw, I wouldn't do that to ya; depends though, I might put it out in the lettuce bed to keep the rabbits out.......

 

Winman, I appreciate your attitude in this and have no doubt a discussion with you on this topic would be interesting and time well spent; however this is not the place to do it.

I would certainly have to argue that there is a difference in scripture, but the belief that the gospel of grace is more than the kingdom gospel has already been branded heresy on this thread.

I have already been given private warning of heresy for bringing to light the truth as I see it of other scriptural passages; so I most likely will be spending my time on another board where there is more confidence in core beliefs and therefore much more friendly to all topics of discussions.

But thanks for the friendly offer anyway.

olegig

 

.......just don't go away mad olegig.........

 

Yes he did, and that is why one should be very sure one is preaching the same gospel Paul was preaching.

One can google about any theology and find those who disagree with said theology will term it "heresy".
I agree there is much victimizing going on in the world; so one must search the scriptures to discover the truth.
Let us do a little comparison here.

Jesus said in person before the cross:
Matthew 6:14 (King James Version)
14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Jesus said through Paul after the cross:
Ephesians 4:32 (King James Version)
32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Before the cross one had to forgive others in order to be forgiven.
After the cross one should forgive others because God has already forgiven you.

This is but one difference in what some call a "two gospel heresy" even though it is scripturally based.

Another comparison:
--Some teach when God sees folks drowning He throws out the life line to a select group and leaves the rest to death.
--While others teach God throws out the life line to all and saves all who grab the line.

I have confidence in the good reader that they can discern which is false teaching (heresy).

 

Amen Brother. From Adam till now by Grace through faith. Olegig has a problem grasping that 'lil precept. He believes the OT Saints were saved from hell by keeping the law.

 

Look, you guys feel like everything was set in stone in eternity past, before the foundation of the world.
So therefore you interpret things in that light.

I believe things happen in real time dependant upon the free will choices man makes.

Its like me saying apples are red, and you counter with the argument that NO! oranges are orange.

When folks don't even agree on how folks are saved, any discussion on the when or who is meaningless.

Its like the old adage about mud-wresting pigs.....Its not long before one realizes the pigs enjoy it.

 

Havensdad;
Repentance is a willing change. It's submission. It's surrender. It's giving up the rebellion. There is no Salvation with out repentance. A very necessary change of mind about our rebellion against God.
MB