Republicans and Abortion

Wrong again, reread this thread, I believe it was Pal. that linked many things Bush and company has done to further the cause of prolife.

 

Actually Tim, we will obviously continue to disagree on this. Nothing in science defines exactly when a new person exists. And scripture is silent also. Yes, we agree, at some point of development there exists a person. The Bible talks about John in Elizabeth's womb, of course. It doesn't say this is at conception, but at some point in Elizabeth's pregnancy. There is absolutely zero scriptural proof that life begins at the point when a sperm penetrates an ova. None. To assert otherwise is to go beyond what the Bible says on the matter.

 

I agree we will disagree...

But we do agree that it would be killing a life at least from month 6 to 9.. because after the John leaped in her belly, Mary stayed with her 3 months.. then Elizabeth delivered...

So surely you would agree that the unborn is alive at least from 6-9 months...
And if so, then it would be murder in the last trimester....

So how do you feel about abortion in the last trimester?
And then would you vote for someone that said abortion would be fine even in the last trimester? For as I have shown using your logic, it would be murder.

 

I have been waiting a long time, and legion posts, to finally see something about the fetus and life......doctors can't definitively say when life begins, and you are correct, mate, scripture doesn't say either.

Cheers,

Jim

 

But I have shown from the scriptures that Life is there at least by 6 months...

And using science, and the definitions of Life I posted earlier...
right after conception, the baby would fit all the definitions of life...

The problem is pro abortion advocates want to justify their sin, and try to ignore the obvious that it has to be at conception...
And others have bought into their mindset.

 

I am not in favor of late term abortion. That said, the word "murder" is poisoning the well, as it is a loaded word with very specific meaning, including malice aforethought. I am 100% against late term abortion for any reason other than the health or life of the woman. However, to not respect that condition is getting into sticky ethical exercises, akin to the story of the drawbridge keeper. One or the other will die...who do you save? If you do nothing, you have selected one to die. If you act, you choose the other. Unfortunately, some situations have horrible outcomes either way, and a choice must be made. These things are interesting ethical and philosophical questions, but fortunately, most abortive actions are not late term.

 

First, if it were obvious, there would be no debate. Secondly, many people who favor keeping abortion legal have never had any participation in such. They have no sin to justify on that count.

I don't believe most people think abortion is a wonderful thing...but sometimes it is necessary (e.g. ectopic pregnancy).

 

Also in (Exodus 21:22) "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [5] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.
(Exodus 21:23) But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life,

Life is defined in Pregnancy.. When does Pregnancy start? conception...

But you say, it could be in later pregnancy... But the Bible doesn't say the later part.. .it says "pregnant woman" and then "life for life"

So in this we see that God sees life in the baby during pregnancy, or why would he require life for life?

 

leap of logic...early term pregnancy may not even be known by the woman. I respect and understand your passion on the matter...but I disagree with your conclusions. BTW, no need to yell!

 

According to Planned Parenthood, here are the statistics of those that get abortion, you mention ethical.. the percentages are very low.. and "life of the mother" didn't even make the 1% mark...

1% are victims of incest or rape
* 1% had fetal abnormalities
* 4% had a doctor who said their health would worsen if they continued the pregnancy
* 50% said they didn't want to be a single parent or they had problems in current relationships
* 66% stated they could not afford a child
*75% said the child would interfere with their lives.
According to Planned Parenthood, The life of the mother is not even an option for abortion.

http://eng.christianitydaily.com/advice/advice2.htm


Actually C. Everett Koop
States that during his 35-plus years of practicing Medicine, (obstetrics)

"Never once did a case come across my practice where abortion was necessary to save a mother's life."

So really the Rape, incest and mother's life argument is a strawman.

 

Sorry about yelling... BB is acting quirky.. these statistics are coming from my sermon for this Sunday, and I am cutting and pasting from my Powerpoint slides.. let me fix it now...


There I fixed it...

Ok, how early would the Hebrews have recognized a woman was pregnant... when she missed her first period? That is something to look at.. And I admit, I have never questioned that...

 

Not a strawman...perhaps rare, but if there is one case, it is not a strawman. And actually, ectopic pregnancy happens relatively often. And thanks for toning down the rhetoric enough for us to have this reasonable discussion.

 

Thanks for the civil discussion.. .I have some things to do.. I may not be able to reply as fast as I have in the last hour or so... so if you post, and I don't get back.. I will eventually....

 

As do I. Blessings to you and yours, bro.

 

Depending on the medics one listens to, some have life beginning at 14 days when it actually is labelled a fetus. A few days later the lump of "marbles" has some discernable body parts.

Now, we can't listen to two things; courts who have rendered legal decisions and organizations which have an axe to grind, including Planned Parenthood.

Another thought from the religious side. Why do churches wait until after a child is born tooffer dedication services? Why dont they have dedication services a few days after a pregnancy is determined, if they truly believe life exists then?

I am not quoting other scientists cos I don't have their theories in my head, but they have life beginning somewhere around 14 weeks...please don't quote me cos I am not sure on time.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Actually, ectopic pregnancies are not "relatively often."

http://yourtotalhealth.ivillage.com/ectopic-pregnancy.html

And if we cannot "prove" when life begins or we can't agree on it, doesn't it make the most sense to err on the side of caution and say conception? After all, an unborn baby that is aborted at 5, 6, 7 weeks would have become, barring miscarriage/accident, a born baby several months later if not for the abortion. So the abortion does prevent the birth of a human being created in God's image by deliberately ending the life of a unborn creature with human DNA, a heart, brain, etc.

Abortions to save the mother's life are needed less and less and are a small percentage. That is not the issue. The issue is abortion for convenience sake or for economic reasons.

 

I like the idea of a dedication service for the baby before it is born...

Thanks...

My sister is due in July, and I might mention this to her.. .her son is growing fine.

 

Regardless, they need to be available when needed, if for this alone.

 

Here's the way I view abortion:

1. Its unacceptable.

2. If a woman is raped I can understand her having one.

3. If it is determined that the mother will die while having the baby, then she should choose whether to go through with the pregnancy or to have the abortion.

4. Under any other circumstances I view this as 1st degree murder.

If I were president I would do the following regarding abortion:

1. Make it illegal (with regards to what I mentioned above). The president doesn't need the senate or congress to do this. All he needs to do is create an executive order. Bill Clinton used executive orders to get around a Republican Senate & Congress.
Why can't I?

2. After making it illegal, any doctor performing an illegal abortion would be charged with 1st degree murder. The mother allowing the procedure to take place would also be charged as an accomplice.

This also may be a bit extreme for me to say, but I'll go ahead & say it. I don't condone murder, but I can't say that I have any sympathy for abortion doctors who are murdered. They make their living killing the innocent everyday.

I was watching a documentary on HBO a few years ago. They were talking about a guy named Dr. Paul Hill, who killed an abortion doctor in Pensacola, FL in the early 1990's. His argument was that God told him to kill the abortion doctor. If I were on that jury, I wouldn't have found him guilty. I would have looked at it as him protecting innocent life. The documentary also showed the family having some kind of ceremony during the funeral or wake where they were singing. It didn't sound like any Christian song I ever heard.

 

I do not think as Christian believers that medics and scientists have authority over Gods Word. I think when we rely on their theories we cheapen the Word. I kinda understand (not agree) why some say what they do about justification of abortion. But, I know from being on my knees and in my closet that life begins at conception. I think if we listen to the Holy Spirit in earnest we will find a simular response.
This is not meant to be an attack, but a earnest statement on how I have come to believe what I do. I am weak, in many areas and think I am strong only when I fool myself, but God strengthens me when I admit my weakness and allow him to make me strong.
I appreciate this thread staying mostly civil. I cry not only for the children that are aborted but for the people, who proclaim Jesus Christ as their Lord, who allow abortion to continue through their vote. This is something that we will be held accountable for.