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Response to [member's names not allowed in thread title] on Partial Preterism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Reformed, Aug 10, 2017.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    In like fashion, when the Bible states that things must happen soon, quickly means not that it was to happen then soon, but when it starts to happen, will be soon to pass!
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yeshua1,
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    In a way...it was important and instructive

    yes...the question that must be examined is...was it the end of the age? or the end of the world?


    Jesus came in Judgment in 70 ad....He did not physically come to earth as the Second coming.That I believe will be on the last day.
     
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  3. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    No, Sir, Jesus DID NOT say that! Here's what He said:

    Matt. 16:28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

    Luke 9:27 "But I say to you truthfully, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.”

    Maybe you didn't intend to, but you certainly changed God's word to try to fit your doctrine! Remember, one can tinker with God's word by inventing different meanings for it, as well as re-writing Scripture itself.



    And several, but not all, of His disciples saw His transfiguration in the garden of Gethsemane, where He appeared in the form which He will most-likely have when He returns. And several saw the events of "the first pentecost" when the Holy Spirit first came upon Christians.Those events certainly weren't His return !

    The TRUTH is, the prophesied eschatological events have NOT yet occurred, so please don't distort God's word as you did above, and try to shoehorn other events into the prophecies to make them appear to have already been fulfilled.
     
  4. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    I believe preterism, buth full & partial, & similar doctrines have been proven false beyond any reasonable argument.
     
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  5. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Does Ezekiel's temple prophecy await a future fulfilment?
     
  6. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Evidently, it does, during the millenium.

    The temple the Jews are now planning to build will likely be built according to the "blueprint" of the past temples, it won't really be a "temple of God' because JESUS is not in the formula. However, I doubt if most of the world will see it that way.

    Not only will Zeke's temple be far-larger, the context of the surrounding Scriptures shows this will be in millenial times, with idyllic conditions, etc.
     
  7. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Does Ezekiel's temple prophecy await a future fulfilment?

    I agree that anything the Israelis are doing in the Gospel age before Jesus returns is in rejection of Jesus, who is Lord & Christ.

    Your answer assumes a future physical millennium & raises lots of questions:

    In particular, the New Covenant Scriptures have no place for an earthly physical temple. The New Covenant temple is built with living stones – believers, both Jew & Gentile who are Abraham's seed & heirs according to the promise. e.g. Galatians 3, Ephesians 2, Hebrews 7, 8, 9, 10, 1 Peter 2

    Jesus answered the Samaritan woman's question about worship by assuring her that the physical location was irrelevant – worship would be in Spirit & in truth. John 4.

    The Levitical priesthood & temple/tabernacle was a copy of the heavenly pattern. When Christ came, he was the true focus for worship so the earthly temple with animal sacrifices became obsolete with his sacrifice on Calvary. The veil of the temple was ripped from top to bottom. Hebrews 8, 10.

    Renewed animal sacrifices will still be worthless – we have the Lord's Supper as a memorial feast.

    Isaiah challenged the Israelites regarding the purpose of the temple. Isaiah 66:1-2 Stephen quoted Isaiah, “What kind of house will you build for me?” Further he declared those who rejected the Holy Spirit to be uncircumcised. He suffered stoning. Acts 7

    John doesn't see a millennial temple, & declares that there is no physical temple in glory. Revelation 20, 21

    Note Ezekiel 43:7 – not for a millennium but for ever. Note also the IF in Ezekiel 43:10-11

    Ezekiel's vision was during the Babylon captivity & Jerusalem & the temple were reduced to rubble. The vision encourages them to pray for the return & to rebuild.

    The millennial times are not idyllic in that during that time the population of the earth are waiting to unite in a Satanic rebellion against Christ. Revelation 20:7-9

    The eschatology of the New Covenant Scriptures teaches us that Jesus will return for resurrection & judgment, & to establish a NH&NE. 2 Thessalonians 1, 2 Peter 3. There is no suggestion of a future millennium when the Old Covenant prophecies & promises for the nation will be realised. Yes – I have studied Romans 11. Israel & the Jews will be saved by repentance & faith throughout the present age. There are only warnings for those who continue in unbelief. Hebrews 3, 6, 10




    What purpose does a rebuilt stone temple serve?

    Why is a local temple needed?

    Are renewed animal sacrifices for sin utterly condemned by the sacrifice of Christ?

    How can a carnal priesthood offer acceptable sacrifices for sin?

    Is Ezekiel answering Isaiah's challenge by giving details of a future physical temple ? Isaiah 66, Ezekiel 40

    Could the vision be to encourage the captives in Babylonia by assuring them they would return & rebuild the temple?

    Should we understand the vision spiritually, as the physical & central place of worship & sacrifice would be the Holy Spirit living in the redeemed people of God, the body of Christ, the Church?

    If the temple vision should be understood in terms of the present Church, what are the implications for the OT visions regarding the restoring of Israel?
     
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  8. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    None for the CHRISTIAN, but much for the Orthodox Jew who doesn't believe Jesus is Messiah, and is still awaiting Messiah.

    As a place for the "abomination of desolation" to be performed by the antichrist/beast.

    For us Christians, yes, but not to the Orthodox Jew who believes the Old Covenant is still in effect.

    It can't. But the Jew doesn't believe that.

    I believe so. No reason to believe otherwise.

    That's part of the reason. It's also to give prophecy for the future.

    No. A big mistake many people make is to reduce "inconvenient" Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic/allegoricas" status when those Scriptures are counter to those peoples' doctrines or dogma.

    I'm sure that, in the millenium, there'll be a temple here on earth that'll be the focal place of worship. it'll be Jesus' earthly "Capitol".

    Isaiah 66: 22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord.

    If you read that whole chapter, you'll see it's largely about Jerusalem.

    Then, there's Zech. 14:
    16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. 18 If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

    Obviously, this hasn't yet come to pass!

    You seem to have a hard time believing Scripture LITERALLY. But most Scripture IS literal! Otherwise, men could make it read however they wanted, to match their imaginations they've turned into doctrines. Re-writing Scripture is one of the main developmental tools of the many pseudo/quasi-Christian cults, sects, & false doctrines men have invented. Well, it WON'T WORK! that's why God has given several warnings for men not to add to or taka away from His word, and that includes inventing new meanings for some passages that are against some man-made doctrine.

    Preterism remains phony as a Ford Corvette![/QUOTE]
     
  9. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    I do have a VERY hard time believing in a future, millennial reinstatement of the old covenant with its rituals, sacrifices, focus on Abraham's physical descendants, rebuilt temple & territorial allotments, etc. It is a system of teaching that completely overrides the New Covenant - Everlasting Covenant - and all that the LORD Jesus Christ came to accomplish by his life, death, resurrection & ascension, and all that he commissioned his Apostles to preach & write.

    You call your teaching "literal" yet you reject the literal teaching of the New Covenant Scriptures. And the whole premil system is according to your accusation: "men could make it read however they wanted, to match their imaginations they've turned into doctrines."

    There is no place for a rebuilt man-made temple with its sacrifices & priestly worship in the New Covenant Scriptures. No place at all. The literal fulfilment of the temple prophecies is explicitly declared to be the church - Jew & Gentile built together as living stones for spiritual worship.
    Eph. 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

    You seem to have a message to orthodox Jews that is rather different from the Apostolic message:
    Acts 3:17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.

    Peter underlines that message in the next chapter:
    Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
    You expect a literal fulfilment of the the OT prophecies concerning Israel. So did Jesus' disciples:
    Luke 24:19 And He said to them, “What things?”
    So they said to Him, “The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him. 21 But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. ......
    ......
    25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

    The true "orthodox Jews" who believed the Scriptures welcomed the Apostolic Gospel in their thousands, including priests & Pharisees. Sadly the Jewish leaders refused to believe the fulfilment of the Scriptures declared before their eyes. They had seen & heard Jesus & seen his miracles -
    John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    There is no other Gospel for orthodox Jews or anyone else who refuses to repent & believe in Jesus. They are continuing under the curse.
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    the scriptures indicate that God still is to work with Israel and the Jews right before Jesus second coming, do you?
     
  11. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Sir, I know many orthodox Jews, and know much of what they believe. they simply don't believe the Old Covenant has been replaced by the New Covenant or that Jesus is Messiah. And they're just itching to renew the OC ceremonies & observances in a new temple in Jerusalem.

    And I'm NOT rejecting the NC Scriptures, not one word of'em! You're inventing stuff again.

    Not ONCE did I say the Jews' renewal of the OC worship will be legitimate, any more than Islam is. But a new temple is necessary for the "abomination of desolation" to be performed in, and to fulfill daniel 9:27 - He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

    I believe SCRIPTURE, not the hooey of Alcazar, Preston, Gentry, Sproul, etc.
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I think that his main problem was with the temple of the Millennium....
     
  13. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    So I understand, but I do not see the relevance to prophecy.

    If you believed the NC Scriptures, you would see the temple worship prophecies fulfilled in the worship wherever Christians worship. e.g. Ephesians 2, 1 Cor. 3, 1 Peter 2
    The idea of a rebuilt temple for animal sacrifices for sin is repugnant to NC teaching of Jesus & the Apostles.


    Daniel 9 concerns Gabriel's 70 weeks prophecy. The 70 weeks ended in the 30s AD. Comparing Matthew 24 with Luke 21, it is clear that the abomination of desolation was by the Romans.

    Mat. 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

    Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    As Gabriel prophesied, the city & sanctuary were destroyed. And the only "vision & prophecy" outstanding after the destruction is the return of our Lord for resurrection & judgment. Jesus is the fulfilment of OC prophecy.

    I believe SCRIPTURE, not the inventions of Darby & Scofield & co. And I believe the NC Scriptures are the key to understanding the OC. Your interpretation of the temple prophecy has no support in the NC Scriptures. NONE.

    As Jesus explained:
    John 4:21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.
     
  14. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Seems that way. However, I believe Jesus will have a "Capitol" building during the millenium.
     
  15. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Right now, most jews don't recognize Jesus as Messiah. And those practicing "Judaism" still go by the Old Covenant. God said He will purge false worship from their hearts.


    Well, many of the practices of Islam, bhuddism, etc. & many of the pseudo/quasi-Christian cults are also repugnant to NC teachings as well, but they are still going on today. Again, I never said the renewal of OC worship was LEGITIMATE worship, but it WILL occur again when the Jews build their new temple.



    MMRRPP ! WRONG !

    The AOD will be when the antichrist & his false prophet set up the AC's statue in the coming temple, which the FP will make speak by Satan's power, & his boss declares himself to be God while in that temple. Obviously, that hasn't happened yet.

    And you've completely bypassed the Revelation, a part of Scripture that God gace a stern warning against altering in any way. Ignoring it is tantamount to altering it. Besides that, you've ignored Matt. 24:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
    The Greek word here rendered "life" is 'sark', which means ""flesh"", man or animal. Obviously, that great trib has not yet occurred. But if you read about the trib plagues in Revelation, especially Ch. 16, you can easily see they could exterminate all animal life on earth were they to persist long enough. Again, it's obvious they haven't yet occurred.

    Also, there were several months between the first Roman siege of Jerusalem under Vespasian, & the siege that finally captured J, under Titus. Thus, people had plenty of time to flee, so this obviously was NOT the siege of Matt. 24.


    For the umpteenth time, I have NEVER said a renewal of OC worship methods is PROPER worship! But it WILL be revived! It'll be just another system of false worship, along with many others now practiced.

    And how many times does GOD hafta say something for it to be so? He said the sacrifices, etc. would be stopped, & the context does NOT indicate it was when the Romans destroyed the 2nd temple.

    So, there won't be a 3rd temple? Not according to SCRIPTURE!!

    2 Thess. 2: 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    Please read Rev. 13 as an expansion of these Scriptures.

    OBVIOUSLY, THAT HASN'T YET OCCURRED !

    You say you believe Scripture? Then, try believing ALL of it, not just the parts you like!
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    For those who wish to have all revelation already fulfilled in AD 70, when in history did Jesus return and slay the man of Sin, and raised up and glorified the body of Christ?
     
  17. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Preterism is so easy to disprove!

    When preterists is asked to provide ***PROOF/EVIDENCE/DOCUMENTATION*** for their pronouncements, they choke.

    When they recover their breath, they try to reduce "inconvenient" Scriptures to "figurative/allegorical/symbolic" status, in the face of all other fulfilled biblical prophecies having been fulfilled LITERALLY.

    Hard for me to see how any Christian, especially a professing Baptict, can believe such a humbug, which is so-easily proven FALSE!
     
  18. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    We are discussing the prophesied temple of Ezek. 40-48. NOT corrupt worship of unbelievers of all sorts.

    The point the LORD is making to Ezekiel is that the temple he is describing will be owned, honoured & occupied by himself for eternity. This is no ILLEGITIMATE renewal of OC worship but the eternal state for redeemed Israel.

    Ezek. 43:4 And the glory of the Lord came into the temple by way of the gate which faces toward the east. 5 The Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple.
    6 Then I heard Him speaking to me from the temple, while a man stood beside me. 7 And He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever.

    I don't see what the AOD, etc, has to do with Ezekiel's glorious temple.

    The inspired vision of the temple given to Ezekiel does concern OC worship, compete with animal sacrifices for sin & burnt offerings.

    Gabriel prophesied an end to sin, sacrifice & offering. Daniel 9

    You seem to be teaching TWO more temples - rebuilt by the Israelis towards the end of this Gospel age, & a fourth in the supposed future millennium.

    I consider Revelation should be understood by comparison with related Scripture. It is rather cryptic as a stand-alone prophecy. And needs it's own thread.

    Scripture teaches the following centres of worship after the Patriarchal period:

    1. The heavenly tabernacle used as a pattern for the wilderness tabernacle;
    2. The wilderness tabernacle;
    3. Solomon's temple;
    4. The temple according to the vision given to Ezekiel.
    All these were honoured by the glory of the LORD filling the house of the LORD.
    5. The rebuilt temple after the return from exile, which continued in existence until the destruction. This was not honoured by the LORD in the same way. And when the LORD incarnate did enter the temple to claim his house he indicated that he was the true temple (John 2) & on the final visit(s) declared the destruction of the den of thieves. At & after Pentecost Christ was proclaimed in the temple.
    6. The church comprising the redeemed of Israel & the Gentiles as one building of living stones for spiritual worship.
    7. The NH&NE where no temple will be seen - the Lord God Almighty & the Lamb are its temple.

    By the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles, there can be no rebuilt physical temple, nor any renewal of animal sacrifices. Ezekiel CANNOT be teaching a future physical temple other than the rebuilt temple after the exile, & that was built half-heartedly rather than in active obedience. It certainly did not conform to the dimensions given, nor was it owned by the LORD by his glorious presence as occurred with the previous structures.

    Does Paul in 2 Thes. teach a rebuilt temple of God before the coming of the Lord? Read chapter 1 again - Christ will come for everlasting destruction of the wicked, & vindication & glory for the saints. BUT before that wicked men will take over what Paul still calls the temple of God, now anything but. The 40 years given to this generation to repent was coming to an end. Once the Jerusalem believers left the city, having understood Jesus' warnings in his Olivet prophecy. With their departure, with all reason for the judgment of God being restrained the wicked ran riot, until the AD 70 destruction occurred.

    Try reading the OC Scriptures with NC understanding.
     
  19. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    This is obviously describing a millenial temple. No healing water has flowed from any of the past temples. It will apparently be occupied by Jesus as His "Capitol" til the millenium is up.

    Now, we can only conjecture about who the "prince" will be. but he will have sons, so he will evidently be a human.
     
  20. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    If there is to be a millennium after Jesus return for resurrection & judgment ..... taking Isaiah 11 & 12 as a pattern.

    Everything will be wonderful - the poor will be vindicated & the wicked & the enemies of Israel slain; even the animal world will be in peace.
    They will neither harm nor destroy
    on all my holy mountain,
    for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
    as the waters cover the sea.

    Or Isaiah 35 - a missionary to Italy said that one of his contacts asked: "Is this referring to Jesus' first or second coming?"

    I think the answer is both - for Jesus performed the miracles prophesied during his ministry, & all believers will rejoice in perfect healing in the resurrection. But .... if it refers to the millennium, the millennium ends seemlessly as it moves into the eternal NH&NE state.

    I'm afraid I haven't got a clear understanding of your future millennium:
    Will there be unbelievers & wicked living & dying?
    What purpose will the millennial animal sacrifices for sin serve?
    Are the details clearly prophesied in OT or NT?

    And living water speaks of the indwelling Holy Spirit as given to the Samaritans (John 4) and to be freely poured out after Pentecost. The perfect fulfilment of Ezekiel 47 according to Revelation 22 is the NH&NE not the millennium.

    Also

    Prince of peace Jesus is certainly human, & his children are believers:
    Hebrews 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:
    “I will declare Your name to My brethren;
    In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”
    13 And again: “I will put My trust in Him.”
    And again: “Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”
    Also how can the AOD etc be set up in that glorious millennial temple? And how will that temple cease to exist in the transition from millennium to NH&NE?
     
    #100 Covenanter, Sep 11, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
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