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REVELATIONS ANTICHRIST

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Alex, Feb 6, 2003.

  1. David A Bayliss

    David A Bayliss New Member

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    I am aware of the calvary chapel teaching. I am not 'anti' it; I just think it misses the twists.

    The beast from the sea is the little horn of Daniel 7. It arises from the nations; and from among the ten horns, it is gentile in origin.

    The beast from the earth is indeed the false prophet; but that is the anti-Christ. I think it quite probable that the initial contract between the little horn and the Jew probably has the anti-Christ upon the Jewish side. It is really only after the midpoint in the tribulation when the dirty deed is done that he becomes more of world prophet than Jewish one.

    DAB

     
  2. postrib

    postrib New Member

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    Does it show anyone repenting during the tribulation? Doesn't it say that the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12)? Is it possible all the Christians we see in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) are us, saved before the tribulation began? Does Jesus promise us a rapture before the tribulation?

    Could giving unbelievers the idea of a 2nd chance be dangerous? After hearing the ideas of a pre-trib rapture and a 2nd chance, could unbelievers get complacent and say "Oh, when I see a pre-trib rapture happen then I'll repent and believe; I've got a 2nd chance, right?"

    Should we instead warn them? "The Bible doesn't promise that there will be a rapture before the tribulation. And in the great tribulation God is going to send a strong delusion (2 Thessalonians 2:11) on all those who rejected the gospel. Today is the day of salvation. You may not get another chance to believe."

    Note that we Christians who will be in the tribulation are Christians after the cross and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13), so we must be in his body (Ephesians 4:4-5), and we must be his bride (Ephesians 5:30-32), and we must have the Spirit, for "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9).

    I believe that the Old Covenant has been abolished:

    "For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God... a better testament" (Hebrews 7:18-19, 22).

    "[Jesus] is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second" (Hebrews 8:6-7).

    "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second" (Hebrews 10:9).

    "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law" (Hebrews 7:12).

    "There is no more offering for sin" (Hebrews 10:18).

    "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man" (Ephesians 2:15).

    "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Colossians 2:14).

    "If the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:7-13).

    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  3. postrib

    postrib New Member

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    What religion would we be who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13)?
     
  4. Alex

    Alex New Member

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    Keep it going here! Good information for all , no matter what side they are on and it is still part of the original topic. I have no problems with "individual debates" within the main topic! :D ;)

    God Bless...........Alex
     
  5. Alex

    Alex New Member

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    To add my "two cents" worth I say the following:

    IF, which is really a YES, Jesus, some 2000 years ago, died for all of our sin with salvation being accepting Him as our Savior, then, how would the Tribulation change how we will be saved. To say that salvation during this time would revort back to the LAWS, would be to deny what Christ died for. All salvation would have to be thru...Jesus! For those who say we shouldn't give sinners a false hope, what is the difference as to NOW or THEN? Some believe we are in Trib. now, so does that mean that NO ONE can be saved now, IF that is a fact? I think not and also do not think we are in Trib. nor is the antichrist active as he would come AFTER the Rapture of the Christians at that point in time.

    No, it will not be easy to say, well, we are really in Trib. so NOW I will accept Christ. It will be near to impossible to most as the majority will not want to be tortured and killed in a way that we can't even imagine now. Even BEFORE the Rapture, the scriptures say FEW will enter Heaven, so thus only a very few then, at best.

    The best that can be taken as an understanding about Revelation and the "end times", is to accept Christ now and not have to endure these awful years. IF, as some have said, the antichrist is alive now, that means that we would have to have the Rapture very soon......maybe in our lifetimes. But first, there isn't any proof of the antichrist as being alive..only by one's thoughts.

    This coming event has been predicted thousands of times and even so today. No one will EVER know the DAY!!!, until it is upon us. As for Neru, I would say NO. Now, take your pick, but still there is no proof....... just some fancy names for the different versions at hand. :D

    God Bless.........Alex
     
  6. Graceforever

    Graceforever New Member

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    Tim, just to let you know that you’re not alone… If you’re in the minority, then I want to be in that number….. I agree with you brother….
     
  7. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    You are right Tim... Something has got to go... Unfortunately with sincere believing Christians... It is often the truth!... You got two thumbs up from me! [​IMG] ... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  8. LauraB

    LauraB New Member

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    Well we really don't know who exactly will be the antichrist, but we certainly know who to look for. Such as we know this:

    1. He will be European Born but not live.
    2. He will live in the USA
    3. Hw will be man
    4. He has to be Jewish
    5. He will be known as a peacemaker.

    And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Revelations 13:4
     
  9. David A Bayliss

    David A Bayliss New Member

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    Judaism ... check out Hebrews 11. None of the 'faithful' in that chapter were Christian!

    Although; let me be more precise. During the tribulation it is not -quite- the Old Testament economy in that the Lord has clearly been revealed and scripture is complete.

    But neither is it the current dispensation of grace. It is actually most akin to the Noaic Covenant.

    DAB

    What religion would we be who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13)? </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  10. David A Bayliss

    David A Bayliss New Member

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    Yes; actually it does. That is why you have the witnesses.
    The strong delusion comes at the end of the millenium (not the tribulation). Being 'saved' from the tribulation is not the equivalent of being saved in our dispensation.
    Many people completely misunderstand the millenium and this gives them a false idea of the tribulation too.
    I enjoyed your post; you have clearly studied this subject and I envy the time you have to exposit upon it.

    Unfortunately I don't have the time to answer you in detail but if you are interested I have tackled the questions you raise (and a number of others) in a collection of essays on my website (www.bible-exposition.org). The essay on the tribulation is about 25 pages and has over 75 footnotes so don't go there unless you have time!

    Yours in Christ

    David A Bayliss

     
  11. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    I really don't understand how Bible-believers can think that God will ever go back to any Old covenant after Christ initiated the New Covenant in His blood. What could possibly be meaningful after that once and forever sacrifice?
     
  12. David A Bayliss

    David A Bayliss New Member

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    The Old Testament covenant is upon the basis of Christ's work too.

    If you actually look into it you will find the New Covenant actually IS the covenant to come with the Jew. The covenants (note plural) belong to Israel ...

    DAB

     
  13. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    Are you saying that Gentile belivers are not a part of the New Covenant?
    If so, I hope you don't take communion.
    "This is the blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins"

    In Christ,
    Tim
     
  14. Alex

    Alex New Member

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    I thought we were on different roads but it now seems we have a lot in common. If I am wrong, please advise and on what parts. Thanks

    God Bless..........Alex
     
  15. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    As an unashamed dispensationalist, I don't believe that God will EVER revert back to the Old Covenant.

    LauraB, that is quite the list.

    Where is that Scripture that says he is Jewish and will live in America?

    Maybe the Antichrist is Seinfeld?
     
  16. David A Bayliss

    David A Bayliss New Member

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    We are a part of it, but it is made with Israel/Judah.

    Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

    DAB

     
  17. David A Bayliss

    David A Bayliss New Member

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    The Old Covenant no, the Old Testament? Check out Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremaiah etc. The all say far more about what is coming than the NT does.

    Revelation pieces it all together, but most of the actual information is in the Old ...

    In particular the New Covenant with the Jew is an OT prediction.

    DAB

     
  18. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    Regarding the New Covenant, I'm glad, David, that you believe we Gentiles are a part of it. I was getting worried for a minute.

    I think our basic disagreement is that I would say that the vast majority of O.T. prophecies were fulfilled by the end of the first century, rather than still awaiting fulfillment.

    But if I needed to vote for a modern antichrist, I'd go for Hillary.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  19. Alex

    Alex New Member

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    Tim and others:

    I don't think the antichrist will be a person that is obvious untill late into tribulations. He just might be our neighbor OR a fellow church member as all that go to church are far from being Christians........meaning non-believers! Actually, he could come from within our own family line at some point in time.

    It seems that a lot look for a Hitler type but I don't think that will be the case. He will fool many!

    God Bless..........Alex
     
  20. Matthew 16:24

    Matthew 16:24 New Member

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    Why then does there seem to be confusion among some people on this subject? The answer is clear. GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION-1 Cor 14:33. Satan is the author of confusion.
    Some people hold the incorrect position that the Rapture will take place in the midst of the Tribulation. Some hold the misguided position that the Rapture will come at the end of the Tribulation. Others hold the mistaken position that the Rapture will come after the Tribulation, and there are others who hold yet a different position. There are some misguided people who do not believe there will be a Rapture. They do not believe that Jesus will actually return as the King of kings and the Lord of lords, as the Scriptures clearly point out. They do not believe there will be a period called the Tribulation. Others believe that Jesus returned about 1800 years ago, and still others about 100 years ago.
    No matter how famous a Bible teacher is, or how anointed he appears to be, or how much he proclaims the Gospel, when there is confusion on a major Bible subject, such as the Rapture, which is clearly and unmistakably stated in the Bible, something is wrong.
    A person that believes the Rapture will come during or after the Tribulation, also may not "even begin" to understand what the Tribulation will really be like. There has never been in the history of the earth a time, either before the flood or after, that will be as bad as what is soon to come. It is written, FOR THEN SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD TO THIS TIME, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE. AND EXCEPT THOSE DAYS SHOULD BE SHORTENED, THERE SHOULD NO FLESH BE SAVED: BUT FOR THE ELECT’S SAKE THOSE DAYS SHALL BE SHORTENED-Mt 24:21,22.
    These people usually do not understand the trumpet judgments and when they will occur. Some mistakenly try to associate the Rapture with the seventh trumpet of Rev 11:15. They may not consider the blowing of the trumpets in Numbers chapter ten. The words "trump" or "trumpet" or "trumpets" appear in the Bible app. 114 times. Several different Hebrew and Greek words are used.
    They may not understand the seven feasts of Israel and their significance. They may not understand the biblical reasons for the Rapture. They may not understand the Jewish marriage customs. Neither do they usually understand that there will be very few people left alive after the Battle of Armageddon. For some reason, many Scriptures are not understood correctly by these people.
    The Scriptures clearly show that the born-again saints are to understand the Bible regarding the times which would precede the Tribulation. Then, knowing and understanding the times, they are to watch and be ready for the Rapture. As it is written, LOOKING (which can also mean watching) FOR THAT BLESSED HOPE, AND THE GLORIOUS APPEARING OF THE GREAT GOD AND OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST-Titus 2:13. Regarding the Rapture, it is written, WHEREFORE COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS-1 Thes 4:18. We are not to watch for the Tribulation, but for the blessed hope. In watching for the blessed hope, we are comforted. God forbid, there would not be comfort, if we had to go into the Tribulation.
    By watching for the Tribulation, instead of the blessed hope, we nullify the Word of God. To watch for the Tribulation, is to watch for the most horrible time in the history of the world. To think that one would enter this utterly terrifying period, when many will be killed, would mean the Christian would live a life of fear. During the Tribulation, those who receive Jesus Christ will not have power to stand against the Antichrist.
    The saints will be given into the hand of the Antichrist. As it is written, I BEHELD, AND THE SAME HORN (the Antichrist) MADE WAR WITH THE SAINTS, AND PREVAILED AGAINST THEM-Dan 7:21. AND HE...SHALL WEAR OUT THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH...THEY SHALL BE GIVEN INTO HIS HAND UNTIL A TIME AND TIMES AND THE DIVIDING OF TIME-Dan 7:25.
    Most saints that get saved, during the Tribulation, can expect to be horribly persecuted, beaten, and then killed by being beheaded.
    Those that teach the Rapture will not come prior to the Tribulation, as already mentioned, are making certain Scriptures of no effect. They are not teaching the people to watch for the "blessed hope," that is, the return of Jesus to take "His" people. They are not teaching others to watch as God commands.
    Those that teach the Rapture will not come prior to the Tribulation are making God’s Word of no effect (null and void). This is exactly what Satan wants to do.
    The Scriptures show that we are to watch. Those who do not teach that the Rapture will soon come are, in effect, teaching a form of rebellion against God’s commands.


    1. The Jewish people would be scattered worldwide; yet Israel would become a nation again after a long time and at a time the Bible calls the "latter days"-ref Isa 66:8; Mic 5:3; Ezek 38:8. Against what appeared to be impossible odds, this prophecy has been fulfilled. It happened as predicted on May 14, 1948 after about 2500 years. That’s 1 out of 1.
    Note: Israel was destroyed in approximately 721 B.C. and Judah about 135 years later. Since that time, approximately fourteen different peoples have possessed the land of Israel. Yet as the Bible said, the nation of Israel would be reborn.
    The rebirth of Israel was a key sign, indicating we had entered a time period called the "latter days." It was the beginning of a countdown leading to the Tribulation and culminating with the Battle of Armageddon and the return of Jesus. Along with the fulfillment of this crucial event are over 360 prophecies that would all come together, so we might recognize that the Tribulation is very close at hand. Some of these are listed here.
    Yet the Bible foretells that most people would not believe these things, despite the overwhelming evidence of the signs from God’s Word being fulfilled exactly as predicted. As people refused to believe the flood was coming in Noah’s time, so people today willingly choose to disregard the signs of the times.

    2. Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 2 out of 2.
    Note: On Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the U.N. approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. On the morning of May 14, 1948 (the last day of the British mandate), a meeting of the People’s Council took place in Israel to decide on the name of the state and to finalize the declaration. At precisely 4 pm, the proclamation ceremony began at the Tel Aviv museum. The 979 Hebrew words of the Scroll of Independence were read. All stood, and the scroll was adopted. The notorious White Paper, issued by the British in 1930 restricting Jewish immigration, was declared null and void. Members of the People’s Council signed the proclamation. David Ben-Gurion rapped his gavel, declaring, "The State of Israel is established. This meeting is ended." Israel was brought forth as a nation in one day, at once, exactly as predicted. At midnight, the British soldiers and high commissioner would leave. President Truman was swift in announcing U.S. recognition of Israel. The following morning, on May 15, Israel was under attack by the Egyptian, Syrian, Lebanese, Jordanian, and Iraqi forces.

    3. Israel would be brought forth (or reborn) "out of the nations"-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 3 out of 3.
    Note: As previously stated, on Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the "United Nations" approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. This prophecy was perfectly fulfilled. Consider, for centuries the land of Israel had been occupied by many nations. Israel was "brought forth out of the nations"—the children of Israel from many nations have been returning to their ancient homeland.

    4. Israel must regain the city of Jerusalem-Joel 2:32; Isa 28:14; Ezek 22:19. This happened just as predicted in 1967. That’s 4 out of 4.
    Note: The Bible gives us two methods so we would know the time we are in. One is by Israel’s rebirth. The other, by a precise line of events that would all come together at one time. Israel was reborn on May 14th, 1948. The Bible indicates that from Israel’s rebirth a generation would not pass till all be fulfilled. not setting any date; however, it seems clear from Israel’s rebirth and the signs of the times— that we are living in the generation in which the Rapture and Tribulation will come and catch most people by surprise. Are you ready?
     
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