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Featured Review of Free Will 2

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by TCassidy, Oct 7, 2018.

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  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    From the recently closed thread on Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will.

    How do we turn when we are inextricably bound? We are set free from sin and thus enabled to believe, turn, and obey. God does that by removing your cold, dead, heart of unbelief and replacing it with a warm, living, heart of faith.

    Think for a moment on the illustration Christ uses to shed light on this subject. He told Nicodemus "You must be born again."

    What did you do that resulted in your being born? Nothing? Exactly.

    And what did you do that resulted in your being born again? Nothing? Exactly.

    This is a very simple subject, but to understand it you have to do something this is very difficult for people to do. You have to lay aside the idea that you are good enough to do something to merit your salvation. It flies in the face of our "self-esteem." It flies in the face of our pride. It flies in the face of our insistence that we are somehow better than the lost because we were able to do something to merit salvation and those poor lost people could not. "I thank God I am not as other men . . . " (Luke 18:11).
     
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  2. 37818

    37818 Member

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    Without the sanctifying work of God's Spirit none of us are of God's elect (1 Peter 1;1-2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

    ". . . through the sanctification of the Spirit . . ."

    And those whose names are not in the book of life are lost in Judgement (Revelation 20:15)

    And only those who "overcome" have the promise of not ever having their name blotted out (Revelation 3:5).

    The term "free will" is not found in Holy Scripture, but refers to the fact we are self willed. At issue is our own will versus God's will (Matthew 7:21; John 7:17; Acts 7:51).
     
  3. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Election took place from before the creation of the world, per Ephesians 1:4. The sanctification by God’s Spirit is proof, confirmation of that election.
     
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  4. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    Well inextricable is where it's impossible to disentangle or separate and you say we don't have the capacity to turn believe or obey. You say that all has to be put in by God and yet God holds nonbelievers responsible for not doing so even though he makes no move to help them and says then they are without excuse. Where in the name of sanity can you claim they are without excuse.

    Or is it rather what God really said in Rom 1 : 18 is that because they suppressed the truth which they didn't need to or have to do that they became...without excuse. Rom 1 talks about other things that THEY BECAME BUT....were not prior!

    Vs 21 says their imaginations became vain...insinuating they weren't necessarily that way before....and their foolish heart WAS darkened....insinuating it wasn't that way before, 22 says they became fools....didn't say they were fools but became them .

    Verse 24 says wherefore meaning because they suppressed the truth he gave them up, that is to become darker. No stepping in with a life line giving these people hope that they didn't need to suppress the truth? Well I think the text is obvious. They weren't locked in where they had do that but they chose to when they could have chosen God and of which God wanted them to.

    God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pt 3:9
     
  5. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    Cassidy I'm not saying you're not an intelligent man...you probably are but have you really thought through on this? All right...what did we have to do to become physically born? Nothing. But that includes believing!

    But Jesus said it is we who have to do something to be spiritually re-born....and that is believe! Believe, confess and identity with what Jesus did on the cross for us.

    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    Rom 10:9-10


    For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Matt 12:37

    So Cassidy please consider! By your insistence to attribute some negative view upon believers who have been obedient in what God has said while others have not and being angry towards them....aren't you really following in the footsteps of Cain who wanted to believe his brother was arrogant towards him?

    I don't see anywhere where Abel went to Cain and said he did something better than he. A person of humility won't do that or phrase things that way BUT will just go right ahead and serve God. God however on the other hand will tell the deficient one the score.

    The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” Gen 4:5-6

    So Cassidy please consider! By your insistence to attribute some negative view upon believers who have been obedient in what God has said while others have not and being angry towards the obedient ....aren't you really following in the footsteps of Cain who wanted to believe his brother was arrogant?
     
    #5 Rockson, Oct 7, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    Exactly! Nothing. Nothing at all.

    You have it just backward. Until you are born again you cannot see, perceive, or even know of the Kingdom of God. Believing is the RESULT of regeneration. There is no such thing as an "unbelieving believer."

    Which is the result of being born again. Just as believing our parents, obeying our parents, and identifying with our parents are the RESULT of our birth. And faith, repentance, and obedience are the RESULT of our new birth.

    As to the rest of your post, it is nonsensical drivel.
     
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  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    I don't say that. The bible says that. The bibles says the lost man is dead in trespass and sin. Can a dead man unchain himself so he can move around?

    Because they are sinners and the wages of sin is death. Are you denying that lost people are sinners? How in the name of sanity can you claim that sinners are not guilty of sin?
     
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  8. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Bible says dead men can walk around, says nothing about chains.

    Eph. 2:2

    You can put the goalposts right over there...



    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL
     
  9. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Not sure how many times we have to say this on this board. Our ability to believe is enabled by the preaching of the gospel not by regeneration. Romans 1:16; 10:17

    Our election is "in Him" meaning we are not elect until we are saved.

    Pretty simple really.
     
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  10. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    And this is the hurdle that the Synergist cannot clear. They do not believe that the sinner is spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13). They believe the sinner is spiritually ill, but possesses a latent faith that just needs a swift kick to wake it up. It is then up to the sinner to choose whether to believe. I do not think it is helpful for Monergists to stray from this point of disagreement. We need to hammer home the truth over and over again. Scripture is not vague on the spiritual condition of the sinner. Not only is the sinner dead spiritually (Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13), he lacks the ability to understand and act upon the Gospel (Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14). It is only after the Holy Spirit makes the man able (through regeneration) that he will believe (Ezk. 36:26; Eph. 2:5). There is no other plausible argument that can be made. Any appeal to logic, fairness, or equity that departs from the clear and unambiguous teaching of scripture on this matter is in vain.
     
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  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    So you believe you have been saved since the foundation of the world?

    Eph 1:4 even as he elected us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without defect before him in love;
     
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  12. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    Can they? If so, walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience is "turning to Christ?"
     
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  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Ignoring your usual twist on others words I will just say that what I believe is God set into place election before the foundation of the world and we become part of that which was set into place once we are "in Him".
     
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  14. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Show me where I said that action is "turning to Christ."

    I merely said the Bible describes people dead in trespasses and sins as walking. Thus, the Calvinist's metaphor that spiritually dead people can't do anything, like 'move around,' is not valid.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL
     
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  15. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Monergism does not teach that spiritually dead people are not alive physically.
     
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  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    Still having trouble following the discussion? The topic was not being able to turn to Christ due to being in bondage to sin. Please, try to keep up.
     
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    He knows that. He is just trolling. :rolleyes:
     
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  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    So we are not elect from the foundation of the world as the bible says?
     
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  19. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I figured as much, but you never know how many lurkers are out there who never post.
     
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  20. 37818

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    ". . . shall be saved." σωθησεται. Follows faith.
     
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