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Rick Warren on the condition of man...

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Daniel David, Nov 15, 2002.

  1. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    You missed the whole point!
    The point is that your church employs human methods to aid in the communication of the gospel. You simply draw the line in a different place based on what you prefer (largely built upon your tradition).

    I know of no church that does not utilize some type of method. Does your church use SS curriculum or flannelgraph or PowerPoint?

    Again consistency is a difficult task to maintain in your position.
     
  2. Molly

    Molly New Member

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    I think you have missed the point of why a church does what it does....PDC does things specifically to attract the lost. The methods are for that reason. I think when a church does that,they are focusing on the wrong things.I am opposed to anything that makes God's word secondary. I am very consistent in my position.

    We use Desiring God from John Piper for a lot of our children's curriculum,our adult studies are on books of the Bible,we are in one on Ephesians right now...nothing but clear teaching from the scripture....

    Our Wed night studies are books like the Exemplary Husband,Excellent Wife,and their other classes for theological study for those really wanting to do more Greek and Hebrew type seminary classes and also Biblical counseling classes to equip believers how to counsel or help others,biblically. I see very little fluff in the areas of teaching,it is all focused on God's word.

    We teach God's word to equip believers....it is quite contrary to devising plans and methods to attract unbelievers. We don't mind informing others of what our church is about and why we minister the way we do,but we do not try to appeal to the unlost,we preach Christ and let God do the work to save those he chooses(usually outside the church walls) and to strengthen and build up His body. [​IMG]
     
  3. Molly

    Molly New Member

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    I am not opposed to innovation,per say,but I am opposed to anything that makes God's word not the emphais,either through weak teaching,community center type felt needs classes...,making the style of the church what works,when God Word is what works. I would like to see all churches sold out to God's Word,then we could see a great impact for Christ!
     
  4. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    As I have said repeatedly, you are wrong here. The PDC is about balance. Evangelism is just one aspect of its purpose. If you want to focus upon the seeker-sensitive services, that is fine. But the SSS is just one aspect of the overall paradigm. Once again, you focus upon one point and miss the overall picture.

    Like it or not, these are all methods. Once again, you show that you are not opposed to methods. You just want to choose which methods are appropriate and which are not.

    BTW, you will find very similar discipleship classes in PDC churches. Nothing new here. I lead the same type discipleship classes regularly. You are going to have to try another approach. This one fails.

    Will you please answer these two questions:

    1) Do you believe it is consistent with the Great Commission to make no effort to appeal to the lost?

    2) Do you believe evangelism is essential to a healthy church?
     
  5. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    Like you, I believe in the centrality of the Bible in what we do (actually I, along with Piper, prefer to refer to the centrality of Christ). This has never been the issue. We both have an equal view of the authority and sufficiency of Scripture. I am not sure why you cannot get that.
     
  6. Molly

    Molly New Member

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    [/QUOTE]Like it or not, these are all methods. Once again, you show that you are not opposed to methods. You just want to choose which methods are appropriate and which are not.

    Right,ones that are biblically based and studies to know what God's word says are my preference. These are very God-honoring.

    Will you please answer these two questions:

    1) Do you believe it is consistent with the Great Commission to make no effort to appeal to the lost?

    I believe God grows His church,we should be equipped at church to go out and share Christ with the lost,not make church services for the lost.

    2) Do you believe evangelism is essential to a healthy church?[/QB][/QUOTE]

    Yes,evangelism is one aspect of a healthy church,but when reaching a saddleback sam becomes everything,other things get diminished. I have stated before,I am fine with a special evangelsitic service made just for lost folks who need to hear the gospel,or maybe you have shared with them and they need it from another source(We had one of these a while back,but it was not on Sunday morning and it was for evangelism only)....I'm not opposed to this,but making everything evangelistic,yes,I see concerns here.I disagree with that part of the book. The church should be about equipping believers to *go out*,not bring your lost friends to church....

    I feel I am repeating myself....I guess you are,too. Your argument shows me you just don't see it,or refuse to see it,whichever one is the case.

    Ta-Ta! It's been fun. [​IMG]
     
  7. Molly

    Molly New Member

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    Hi,again. [​IMG]

    I just wanted to add....I'm sure you have read the presentation of the gospel at Grace to You,but I would like for you to compare the words and use of scripture to that of Rick Warren's on his website. Why is he leaving so much out when he is giving the gospel to many who will hear it on his website? When he preaches and teaches,it makes me think he is leaving important stuff out,as well. Are you okay with his teaching?

    Okay,that's it...I really need to leave you alone! :D
     
  8. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Why herein is a marvellous thing, that you appeal constantly to Jesus' example of, in your view, a variety of methods, yet you think the methods He avoided are of no consequence. In reality, your strongest evidence is the lack of prohibition, itself an argument from silence. And you accuse us of inconsistency? [​IMG]

    But when you say, "We have no idea what the EC employed," you make a false, statement, but necessary to maintain your position.

    The verse is much more than that. Paul contrasts his methods (i.e., spiritual) with those commonly employed by the world (i.e., carnal). But for you to dwell on the actual meaning of those verses would derail your train of thought.

    And, when pressed into the corner with relevant Scriptures, you bail. [​IMG]

    Corrected my grammar.

    [ November 26, 2002, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
  9. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    You have failed to answer other questions I have asked. But this question is key to this discussion, so take time to answer:

    Do you maintain that the Early Church is the exhaustive model for church methodology???

    Another question: is Paul's primary emphasis in this text upon the MESSAGE or the METHOD?

    Follow-up: Is Paul prescribing in 1 Cor 2 a particular method of ministry for every local church?

    Considering the number of posts and persons with whom I have discussed these issues in the past few weeks on BB, I think you would have a difficult time persuading anyone I have "bailed." :rolleyes:

    [ November 26, 2002, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: SBCbyGRACE ]
     
  10. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    I am glad you finally recognize it is a preference. [​IMG]

    So in the end, you are opposed to the time (Sunday morning) and frequency of the seeker-sensitive services?

    BTW, there is a reason the services are called "seeker-sensitive" and not "seeker-driven". You continually make the accusation these services are designed exclusively for unbelievers. Even the title seeker "sensitive" debunks your claim. This distinction is clear in the overall paradigm.

    Actually I understand very clearly the argument you are attempting to make. I am surrounded by scholars, pastors, and students who often attempt to make the same arguments.

    My point is that your arguments are aimed at one individual aspect of the PDC and you are attempting to critique the beam based upon the speck. The PDC model must be examined as a whole. If you try and critique individual aspects of it outside the whole paradigm, you fail to see the significance of each purpose.

    I really don't want to get into the exercise of "comparing websites" to approve or disprove someone's methodology. Grace To You reflects MacArthur. There are multitudes of church websites that have no presentation of the gospel. Does that mean their theology is faulty?

    If you are asking me if I agree with RW on 100% of his teachings, the answer is no. If you are asking me whether RW believes and preaches the gospel of Jesus Christ, the answer is yes.

    Those who are not "against" Him are "for" Him.
     
  11. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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  12. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    The issue is about Warren's belief in the goodness of man. This is such a basic theological issue. It really amazes me to see people defend this guy.

    His methods are a clear result of his theology of man.

    I don't have to attack his methods. He does a good enough job convincing sound people that he is radical in theology and careless in methodology.

    There is nothing wrong with evangelism. Evangelism is not what the gathering of the church is for. Read 1 Cor. 14, Paul mentions the possibility of the unsaved attending. He nowhere encourages it. Think about it.
     
  13. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    If we could only be as "sound" as you, then we might could see clearly how wrong we are and how right you are :rolleyes: [​IMG]

    Still waiting for those answers .... [​IMG]
     
  14. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    SBC, it is fruitless to argue the methods when the theology is so obviously unscriptural.

    You want to argue methods. I don't have to. His methods are a result of his lack of understanding. In fact, if he really thinks of man the way the statement of faith is, then someone should target him for evangelism.

    Out like sound theology from Warren's book/methods/arguments/etc.
     
  15. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    If I'm not mistaken, the original thread started over methodology. Theology was only brought into the picture when you went and introduced a small portion of Saddleback's statement of beliefs from their website (which in the end did not tell the whole story).

    Seems to me you simply want to avoid the questions I have raised.

    I am sure he is sitting in anticipation of your soon-to-be released book on what is dogmatically right and wrong in all matters of faith and practice.

    And such words reveal your own "lack of understanding." :rolleyes:
     
  16. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    SBC, I further find it amazing that you could consider yourself more "reformed" than not and not see through this. You appear to be more interested in defended him than actually embracing a position on these issues. Relativity is not an admirable quality in regards to biblical truth.

    People within the SBC are notorious for simply learning how to argue and not actually coming to truth. Salvation is such a clear doctrine in Scripture.

    Specifically this thread was started in regards to his theology, not methodology. I still have not heard from him regarding the questions I asked.

    Warren denies a fundamental truth of the gospel, namely that people are corrupt and cannot do a single good act until he is given a new nature. I think Paul addressed this somewhere. Oh yeah, Romans 3:

    There is none righteous, no not one; there is none who seeks after God.

    That pretty much takes care of his theology and "seeker" sensitive services. Next.
     
  17. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    Sorry I don't fit in your box [​IMG]

    To what "issues" are you referring? Human depravity? I have a definite position on this issue. It is probably very similar to yours. At the same time, I recognize that underlying the "how depraved is totally depraved" debate that has been tossed about for 2k years of church history is the foundational belief that humans are sinners in need of a Savior. It is upon this fundamental truth I can agree with both sides of the discussion.


    My don't we paint with broad strokes (which btw is part of the problem to begin with).

    As soon as you release your book, we will be able to "come to the truth." [​IMG]

    I concur, salvation is a clear doctrine: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."

    The original thread in which this discussion began was over methodology. I am willing to discuss either, but try not to abandon the ship in the original context to steer in your own direction.

    In response to your slander, I will simply quote Warren: "Salvation is a gift from God to man. Man can never make up for his sin by self-improvement or good works. Only by trusting in Jesus Christ as God´s offer of forgiveness can man be saved from sin´s penalty. Eternal life begins the moment one receives Jesus Christ into his life by faith....Salvation is maintained by the grace and power of God, not by the self-effort of the Christian . It is the grace and keeping power of God that gives this security."

    Check and mate. You now need to apologize for your misrepresentation of the truth (that you know so well). I will not hold my breath.

    I will repeat 2 questions you refused to answer before:

    1) Was Jesus seeker sensitive?
    2) Should a church be insensitive to the lost?
     
  18. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    If I remember correctly, I specifically did not continue that discussion until Warren answers my questions. It isn't jumping ship. :rolleyes:
     
  19. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    A couple of points need to be address as this is getting tiresome:

    1. Nothing in my quote of Warren is slander. Picking apart his own statements and comparing them with the Word is not slander. Saying it is vague, purposely misleading, and false is not slander. :rolleyes:

    2. If that was supposed to be checkmate, let me reread the rules. :rolleyes:

    3. I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ. :rolleyes:
     
  20. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    One of your typical responses. You refused a) to answer the questions and b) to address the Warren statement I quoted which clarifies where he stands on the original subject matter.

    I have come to expect no less.

    Tack on to these false accusations the suggestions that he is preaching a distorted gospel and needs to be evangelized and I think one might have a case for some spiritual slander (especially considering the fact you have never proven Warren is outside the circle of orthodoxy in any fashion).

    But then again, I am arguing with a person who consistently condemns anyone outside his box, so ....
     
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