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Featured "Righteous faith"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Dec 31, 2022.

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  1. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    You seem unaware that your verse doesn't support your assertion.

    *2 Thessalonians 2:11-13*
    Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

    Look at what God says.
    God chose one group to receive a strong delusion
    God chose us to be the first fruits to be saved.
    The effect of God's choice of us is sanctification and believing the truth.

    All the verses you imagine as proof for your unorthodox theology are actually verses that show your theology is bogus.
     
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  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Non sequitur.
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Folks, note that AustinC uses a mistranslation to support his misinterpretation. I kid you not. The "to be saved" phrase in not in the text, but for salvation is in the text. Why turn a noun into a verb. To alter God's inspired text, changing chosen through faith in the truth to saved through faith in the truth, thus hiding the conditional election.
     
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  4. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    LOL, I provide fully accepted and peer reviewed translations, yet you pick an open source translation and then claim the ESV is bad.
    Understand that your comments have no legitimacy at all, Van
     
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    God crediting Abraham's faith as righteousness by logical necessity means Abraham's faith was credited as righteous faith.
    Saying 1 + 1 does not equal 2 does not move the ball.
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    As if AustinC does not know the text reads "for salvation" not "to be saved."
     
  7. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    No it doesn't.
    You are confusing dikaios, which means 'just' or 'righteous' with dikaiosune which means 'righeousness.
    Can you find one place in the New Testament which refers to pistis dikaia, 'righteous faith'? It isn't there.
    What Romans 4:5 is saying is that Abraham, who was by nature ungodly like the rest of us, was declared righteous (justified) on account of his faith. It does not say that his faith was declared righteous, it says that HE was.

    So simple a child could understand it!

    I have taken you off 'ignore' purely to explain this to you. You are now back on.
     
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  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Personal incredulity is a fallacious argument. If you credit worthless faith as righteousness, then the credited faith can be said to be righteous faith.

    Next, Martin once again claims the verse does not say Abraham's faith was credited, but instead says Abraham was credited. Not how it reads.

    Ask yourselves, why does God credit some individuals faith? See Romans 4:23-25.
     
  9. unprofitable

    unprofitable Active Member

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    Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper, and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment, thou shalt condemn. This the heritage of the servants of the Lord and THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS IS (GIVEN) OF ME, saith the Lord. Remember all the OT verses that say I WILL GIVE!!! This is grace.

    Phil 1:29 For unto you IT IS GIVEN in the behalf of Christ not only to believe on him (their righteousness AND faith IS OF ME) but to suffer for his sake. This also why those seeds that fell on the good ground persevered when persecuted. They had the faith and righteousness of Christ.

    Christ, in speaking of himself, say that he who is least in the kingdom was greater than John Baptist (Matt 11:11). He also speaks of the mustard seed being least of all herbs (Matt 13:32). In it he equates the mustard seed to himself, him being the head of the church and his kingdom and his faith the greatest. Lastly, he tells his disciples if they have the faith of a mustard seed (faith of Christ) they could say to the mountain (perverted kingdom understanding) to be cast down and it would. (Matt 17:20). This is the faith of Christ being GIVEN to us, as a body of Christ, making all things possible.

    We must, from these verses, conclude that it is the righteous faith of Christ that is being spoken of and not our own that is counted for righteousness.
     
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  10. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    An excellent post yet I would like to ask;

    From above: He was declared righteous (justified) on account of his faith.

    Romans 10:17 ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ
    Thus the faith out of hearing, the yet hearing through of declaration of God

    What declaration did God make to Abraham that Abraham hears which was, "the faith," by which Abraham was declared righteous/just?

    Was it not?

    And in thy seed (singular Christ) shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. Gen 22:18
    Gal 3:7,8 YLT know ye, then, that those of faith -- these are sons of Abraham, and the Writing having foreseen that by faith God doth declare righteous the nations did proclaim before the good news to Abraham --

    Does, did proclaim before the good news to Abraham = For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: - because of - By (To, a/c dative) faith Abraham hath offered up Isaac, being tried, and the only begotten he did offer up who did receive the promises, of whom it was said -- 'In Isaac shall a seed be called to thee;' reckoning that even out of the dead God is able to raise up, whence also in a figure he did receive him. Heb 11:17-19

    Was the death and resurrection of Christ, the seed of Abraham, the faith of Abraham?

    Has Isaac been raised out of the dead?

    2 cor 5:21 also comes to mind
     
  11. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    The actual verse quoted in Romans 4:3 is Genesis 15:6, but in fact God's covenant with Abhaham comes in four stages.

    1. Gen 12:1-3. The covenant Announced. The word ‘covenant’ is not mentioned here but Peter in Acts 3:23 makes it clear that God’s initial promises to Abram were part of the covenant. The three part of the covenant, Land, Nation, Seed are made clear.
    2. Gen 15. The Covenant Transacted. The word ‘covenant’ is used in connection with Abraham for the first time, and a sacrifice is made. It is important to note that circumcision is not part of the covenant at this stage. The blessings promised to Abram are on the basis of his faith alone.
    3. Gen 17. The Covenant Instituted. He receives a new name, and the sign of the covenant, circumcision,
    4. Gen 23. The Covenant Confirmed. Abraham’s faith is proved by his actions (cf. Heb 11:17) and the promises repeated.
    The Abrahamic Covenant, like the covenants with Adam (Gen 3:15), Noah and david, is a ‘covenant of promise’ (Eph 2:12). The word promise is used quite frequently in the New Testament with reference to Abraham (Acts 7:5; Rom 4:12; 9:4-9; Gal 3:5-29; 4:28; Heb 6:13-20; 11:9, 13, 17). The promises are ‘in Christ’ (Gal 3:17 NKJV. cf. 2Cor 1:20) as well as ‘of Christ’ (Gal 3:16); that is, they refer to Christ and are for those who are His by faith. The ‘Seed of the woman,’ spoken of in Gen 3:15, is shown to be also the Seed of Abraham, but the blessing is to the whole world. The promises are entirely gracious. There was nothing in Abraham to make him worthy of being the recipient of these promises. He was not brought up in a household that worshipped Yahveh; ‘Your fathers, including Terah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, dwelt on the other side of the river in old times: and they served other gods’ (Josh 24:2-3). It was not the piety of Abraham which commended him to God, but grace alone through God’s sovereign election. Nor could Abraham do anything to bring the promises about; he and Sarah might have been married for about fifty years before ever God spoke to him (cf. Gen 12:4), and they were doubtless already resigned to childlessness, but God was pleased to show him unmerited favour.
    Abraham believed the promises of God concerning Isaac, and looked forward to the day of Christ (John 8:56), but how much he foresaw of His death and resurrection is not clear to me.
    Isaac had the same promises as Abraham given to him, as did Jacob (Genesis 26:2-5; 28:13-15).

    You can read an article I wrote on the Abrahamic covenant some years ago here: The Covenants Part IV. The Abrahamic Covenant
    If I were writing it today I would probably change and/or add a few things, but I think it may be helpful.
     
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  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Folks, did unprofitable address Romans 4:23-25? Nope, he changed the subject.

    Is Isaiah 54:17 germane? The "servants of the Lord" refers to those who sought the Lord. Thus this verse supports that the lost can seek the Lord. "And their victory is from Me" refers to the Lord;s justification in light of false charges hurled against them.

    I have addressed Philippians 1:29 and the bogus interpretation of some many times. They were allowed to believe and suffer. The verse does not say nor suggest "their righteousness and faith is of [instilled by] Me." And obviously the 4th soil of Matthew 13 was not regenerated before hearing the gospel. That is an outrageous fiction concocted to hide truth.

    Faith is like a mustard seed, though small it has the power to replicate its kind, thus our faith in Christ will produce Christ like attributes and attitudes

    There is no need to rewrite, "his faith" as "God's faith instilled by irresistible grace."

    Just read Romans 4:23-25. :).
     
  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    @unprofitable spoke to you directly as has everyone who opposed your tainted theology. We all read scripture, and the verses you share here, and we recognize your error in interpretation. You have shared your twisting of scripture via the Vanology translations you present. We know what you are about and we soundly reject your misguided understanding of the Bible.
    I applaud @unprofitable for his post as it spoke well to your claims and refuted them correctly.
    It is apparent that you will not accept correction from any brother or sister in Christ. Therefore I consider your comments to be of no value here.
     
  14. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I don't believe that pistis Christou, 'faith of Christ,' refers to the personal faith of Christ, or that it means 'the faithfulness of Christ' but that it is an objective genitive and means faith towards or in respect of Christ: 'in Christ.' There are four main reasons for this:
    Firstly, Romans 4:3. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.' What was credited to Abraham? Clearly his belief or faith towards or in respect of God.
    Secondly, Romans 5:19. 'For as by one man's [Adam's] disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's [Christ's] obedience [Gk. hupakoe] many will be made righteous.' It is not by our Lord's faith that many will be made righteous, but by His obedience.
    Thirdly, here is Galatians 2:16 (KJV), where pistis Christou occurs twice. 'Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.' Please not that the Definite Article ('The') is not found in the Greek of this verse. That is why I have not enboldened it throughout. The contrast in the verse is between ergon nomou, 'Works of law' and pistis Christou, 'faith of Christ.
    So let's consider 'works of law:' is it the law that works? Of course not! It is our works in respect of the law. So for the comparison to work, 'faith of Christ' has to be our faith towards or in respect of Christ; 'faith in Christ.'
    Finally, Revelation 14:12, KJV. 'Here is the patience of the saints:here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus [Gk. ten pistin Iesou].' The fist two genitives are plainly Subjective, but how do you keep someone else's faith? Clearly, it refers to that faith which is towards or in respect of Jesus.
     
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  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the correction on this subtlety, Martin.
     
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  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The concept of "righteous faith" is a non sequitur by reason faith does not merit anything.
    Romans 4:4-5, ". . . Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ."

    Now the current Jewish Publication Society translation of Genesis 15:6 does translate it to mean merit, ". . . And because he put his trust in the LORD, He reckoned it to his merit. . . ."
     
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  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Folks, more hate speech, more malice, more of the same empty rhetoric with nothing germane to the biblical concept of righteous faith.

    Here is what I said:
    Is Isaiah 54:17 germane? The "servants of the Lord" refers to those who sought the Lord. Thus this verse supports that the lost can seek the Lord. "And their victory is from Me" refers to the Lord;s justification in light of false charges hurled against them.

    I have addressed Philippians 1:29 and the bogus interpretation of some many times. They were allowed to believe and suffer. The verse does not say nor suggest "their righteousness and faith is of [instilled by] Me." And obviously the 4th soil of Matthew 13 was not regenerated before hearing the gospel. That is an outrageous fiction concocted to hide truth.

    Faith is like a mustard seed, though small it has the power to replicate its kind, thus our faith in Christ will produce Christ like attributes and attitudes

    There is no need to rewrite, "his faith" as "God's faith instilled by irresistible grace."

    Just read Romans 4:23-25
     
  18. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Folks, be the judge and see if I have used "hate speech" as Van is accusing me of using. Or see if Van has created a theology that is not in alignment with God's Word.
    If you want to follow Vanology, that is on you and your conscience.
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Explain how your name calling is not hate speech. I do not agree with brother @Van on every dot the "I" or crossing the t. Nor with you on every doctrinal point.
     
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  20. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    MM I think a little differently and here is why.

    Rom 10:17 10:17 TR ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς (G189 from G191) δὲ ἀκοὴ (G189 from G191) διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ

    Now here are three things Christ spoke of:
    John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard (G191) of him.
    John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard (G191) of God: this did not Abraham
    Mark 11:22 YLT And Jesus answering saith to them, 'Have faith of God; - Ἔχετε πίστιν θεοῦ

    I believe the faith is of God the Father and is the word of God the Father of which the Son of God the Word made flesh is imbued with through hearing. Heb 5:7,8 And then the Word made flesh, even Son, learned the obedience thereof. Obedience of faith.

    Question for remember I know, no Greek yet will ask; Does the Greek work used as obedience have a derivative of hearing included? G5219 = From ὑπό (G5259) and ἀκούω (G191)

    I believe the Word made flesh, the Son of God born of the virgin woman, became the obedience of the faith 0f God (the Father)

    Thus, faith of Christ, the faith of God.

    That brings us back to another Greek translation of Rom 10:17 Morphological GNT - ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Χριστοῦ

    I guess what I am trying to say is I believe is something of God not of man.

    Man could never drum up enough faith for anything IMHO.
     
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