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Righteousness gained through Christ is lost by man through sin

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by evangelist-7, Jul 17, 2013.

  1. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7 New Member

    Apr 11, 2012
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    The OT talks about people being righteous
    Genesis 15:6 … And he (Abram) believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
    Isaiah 3:10 … Say to the righteous that it shall be well with them, for they shall eat the fruit of their doings.
    Malachi 3:18 … Then you shall again discern between the righteous and the wicked,
    between one who serves God and one who does not serve Him.

    OT righteousness appears to have been earned
    1 Kings 8:32 … justifying the righteous by giving him according to his righteousness.
    Proverbs 10:16 … The labor of the righteous leads to life, the wages of the wicked to sin.
    2 Samuel 2:21 … The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness;
    according to the cleanness of my hands He has recompensed me.

    Warning: the righteous had better not fall back into sin
    Ezekiel 18:24 … But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity,
    and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live?
    All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness
    of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

    This is what righteousness is all about
    Luke 1:6 … And they (Zacharias and Elizabeth) were both righteous before God,
    walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
    Luke 1:67-75 … serve Him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our lives.

    Jesus spoke of righteous people
    Matthew 9:13 … For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.
    Matthew 5:6 … Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled.
    Matthew 13:43 … Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
    Matthew 25:46 … And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

    Paul explains righteousness through faith
    Romans 4:5 … (he who) believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness
    Romans 10:10 … For with the heart one believes unto righteousness,
    and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    Philippians 3:8-9 … that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness
    … but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

    Paul gives critical instructions to Christians who are sinning
    Romans 6:4 … we also should walk in newness of life.
    Romans 6:6 … we should no longer be slaves of sin.
    Romans 6:11 … reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Romans 6:12 … Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
    Romans 6:13 … And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin,
    but present yourselves … and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
    1 Corinthians 15:33-34 … Do not be deceived … Awake to righteousness, and do not sin;
    for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.
    Galatians 2:17 … But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves
    also are found (to be) sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin?
    Ephesians 4:22-24 … put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows
    corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind …
    put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

    Christians have a huge advantage over previous people
    Those of us who are born-again have the precious Holy Spirit inside of us,
    leading and guiding us, and convicting us of our sins.
    All that is required of us is to be led by Him and be obedient to what He tells us to do!
    And follow the Scriptures, such as
    1 John 1:8-10
    “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
    and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.”

    Paul asks the BIG question, “Whose SLAVE are you?”
    Romans 6:16 … “Do you not know that to whom you present
    yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
    whether (slaves) of sin leading to death, or (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?”
    Romans 6:16If a Christian is a slave of obedience, this leads to righteousness.
    Romans 6:19If a Christian is a slave of righteousness, this leads to holiness.
    Romans 6:22If a Christian is a slave of God, this leads to holiness and everlasting life.
    If a Christian is NOT a slave of all 3 above, but instead he is a slave of sin,
    this leads to death (6:16, 6:23).

    Righteousness: pursuing it, practicing it, being trained by it
    1 Timothy 6:11-12 … But you, O man of God, flee these things (sins) and pursue righteousness
    If a Christian is sinning, does he/she still have righteousness? Does one pusue what he already has?
    Acts 10:35 … whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
    2 Timothy 3:16 … All Scripture … is profitable for … instruction in righteousness
    Hebrews 12:11 … the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
    1 John 2:29 … you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.
    1 John 3:7 … Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous

  2. Gup20

    Gup20 New Member

    May 11, 2004
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    I disagree with the order of your original premise, as it seems to put the cart before the horse.

    It would be more accurate to say that the righteousness lost by man through sin is gained by man through faith in Christ. Therefore, since it is by faith that we obtain righteousness - and that righteousness is not our own righteousness, but the righteousness of Christ - that it logically stands to reason that we also cannot lose the righteousness obtained through our faith in Christ unless we cease to have faith.

    Christ was declared righteous by being righteous. We are declared righteous by inheritance. God promised that the descendants of Abraham would inherit the righteousness of Abraham. However, God was referring to the spiritual descendants, not the physical descendants. He was referring to those who had the same fatih in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had. By our faith we qualify as sons of God and joint heirs with Christ. As heirs we inherit righteousness as a result of God's everlasting covenant with Abraham. This is why he is called the "father of many nations."

    Gal 3:1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
    2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
    3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

    The same question could be asked another way - having begun by the spirit are you now un-perfected by the flesh? Paul's answer is no. He talks about two covenants in Galatians 3-4. One being The Works of the Law, and the other being Faith. He is saying if we obtain our salvation by the covenant of Faith, then it is impossible to lose it by the covenant of The Law which came 430 years after the covenant of Faith was established. The Law cannot modify or nullify a previously ratified covenant.

    Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.
    16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.
    17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
    18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.​

    Study Genesis 15-17, Galatians 3-4, and Romans 4. The two New Testament passages explain Genesis 15-17.
  3. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7 New Member

    Apr 11, 2012
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    But, I love to ride backwards! LOL

    I advise you to not be fooled by Paul's many and copious encouragements, edifications, exhortations, etc.

    In one verse, he says we are dead to sin, holy, righteous, justified, etc.
    Then, a verse or two later, he yells at us to STOP sinning ... or else!

    It's the job of the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth out of this confusion (which is Paul's genius)!

    Jesus already has been up front and honest with us when He warned to FIRST count the cost of being His disciple.
    He always was much more of a straight-shooter than Paul.

    A preview of Coming Attractions at this theater ...

    John 3:36, New American Standard Bible …
    He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
    but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

    Your initial salvation is lost, if you do not obey Jesus' commands.
    Ditto for not personally knowing both the Father and the Son.
    Ditto for not being led by, and following, the Holy Spirit.
    And other goodies!

    Try putting this cart before your horse. Hope he can trot backwards!

    #3 evangelist-7, Jul 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2013
  4. Gup20

    Gup20 New Member

    May 11, 2004
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    Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

    Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

    Jesus and Paul are in 100% agreement. Jesus gives the personal, people-oriented response, and Paul gives an absolutely airtight legal defense. Both are in perfect harmony.

    By the way, you are cherry-picking your translations.

    Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    The word in question is apeitheō. This is literally translated:

    1) not to allow one's self to be persuaded
    a) to refuse or withhold belief
    b) to refuse belief and obedience
    2) to reject
  5. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7 New Member

    Apr 11, 2012
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    BTW, do not be deceived by erroneous translations of the Bible!
    Also, do not be deceived by erroneous translations of words, such as apeitheō.
    Also, do not be deceived by people with certain biases who write commentaries, etc.

    Do you think the KJV is a perfect translation?
    I have 10 other translations, which agree with John 3:36, NASB.

    There must be something in the Greek, which points to lack of obedience!
    All translators could have just copied the John 3:18's "not believe", but for some reason did not.
    I see a huge difference between "not believe" and "not obey".

    #5 evangelist-7, Jul 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2013
  6. Gup20

    Gup20 New Member

    May 11, 2004
    Likes Received:
    It is neither deception nor erroneous. I'm not a Greek scholar, but I can go by a dictionary and a concordance.

    Act 14:2 But the Jews who disbelieved (apeitheō) stirred up the minds of the Gentiles and embittered them against the brethren.

    I like the NASB. I use it as my primary translation. But I have found things that they have not done right in every translation, including the NASB. In the NASB apeitheō is also frequently translated as not believing. If you look at the Greek definition, it shows that the majority of possible meanings have to do with belief ... and the only one that has to do with obedience is "belief AND obedience". Obedience is never on it's own without belief as far as apeitheō goes. However, there are possible meanings of apeitheō that are belief without obedience. It seems to me that with a preponderance of the word, it is more focused on the belief than the obedience.

    If you look at peithō (the positive version of the word), it gets even clearer that this is talking about belief.

    1) persuade
    a) to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe
    b) to make friends of, to win one's favour, gain one's good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one
    c) to tranquillise
    d) to persuade unto i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something
    2) be persuaded
    a) to be persuaded, to suffer one's self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing
    1) to believe
    2) to be persuaded of a thing concerning a person
    b) to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with
    3) to trust, have confidence, be confident

    The only perfect Biblical translations are the original manuscripts.
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Mar 19, 2012
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    NONE EVER been saved by what they did, ONLY saved by what God did for us in death/resurrection of jesus on our behalfs?

    How can I lose my rightious standing with God, for he accepted the death of Christ as payment in FULl for ALL sins would EVER commit!

    Sow me ANYNT verse thatstates by my behaviour I undo the work God did in saving me?
  8. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Aug 25, 2004
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    Non Baptist Christian
    Well, we understand that we are sinners. I asked you a few times if you would estimate how often you sin, once a year maybe, twice a year, once a week, once a day? But you never answer, why is that? If you are going to preach to us that a BAC must not sin or be damned to hell then you really need to tell us what a sinless BAC looks like. Otherwise, your "opinion" carries no weight.