Romans 13, Do Americans have to submit to the president?

Moses did not obey Pharaoh.
Daniel did not obey Nebuchadnezzar.
Jesus did not submit to local Jewish authorities.
Paul appealed to Ceasar rather than submit.
John was exiled to the island of Patmos because he wouldn't submit.

We take pride in all of the Christian martyrs over the years, from the apostles of the 1st century, to missionaries all over the world today, who wouldn't submit to authorities who wished them to stop what they were doing, to the Christians of the tribulation who will be beheaded for the cause of Christ when they WILL NOT submit. Are we now saying they were/are/will be sinfull because they didn't submit.

Those of you who so quickly condemn those who are trying to obey God, do you not yourselves violate the speed limit, jaywalk, burn trash at the wrong time, litter, dispose of batteries illegally, not build to code, or any of dozens, hundreds, perhaps thousands of local, state, and federal ordinances?

I will never acknowledge sodomites as legitimate no matter what the law says, I will never acknowledge abortionists as anything other than murderers, no matter what the law says, I will never count my employees as innocent victims instead of the drunks, drug addicts, and sexually immporal people that some of them are, no matter what the law says.

I choose to submit to God. Everybody else gets sloppy seconds. Now, if I could only get the practicing what I prech part down pat a little better...

 

Sorry Poncho, I just am missing how to obey our elected leaders is to have a lack of fire for the things of God.

 

Matt
"What if the EU employment directives were interpreted by English and Welsh courts"
"'
Did I miss something gruesome about those?

 

Unless it means going against what God said, then yes.

My understanding is that such legislation wouldn't force them to employ anyone as ministers - that it would only apply to "lower-ranking" employees. However, even if it did, we should ask:

1. Does God tell us we have to employ people in the church?

2. Is there no other way of getting the same result (e.g. choosing someone to be pastor and giving him gifts instead of a wage)?

But if we have to break the law to do what God commands, then we do it.

To all those who think we shouldn't obey the government: what things are you thinking of where we shouldn't obey?????????

 

As Christians we are to serve God first and then country. In the early church Christians were asked to burn incense to the Roman emperor and acknowledge him as "Lord". The faithful refused to do so and so were punished by cruel deaths. Also most would not serve in the military and kill their fellow man either.

We are to obey those appointed over us, but only if it does not conflict with a HIGHER law and that is what the Lord expects of us to obey from his word the bible.

 

Amen, brother!

 

Poncho
"What a strange thing our country and it's constitution is...the only (really) "free" nation on this earth ever and for over two hundred years. Can any other boast of an impossible feat like this? "
Switzerland and Sweden can more or less match your idle boasting Poncho.

 

mioque, a few quick questions....does either of these nation/states 1)require individual tax liability to support any established religion (Germany requires for Catholicism/Lutheranism or you must opt out after court and civic publicity)? 2)Have a history in the last 200 years of being controlled by a religious power or political dictatorship?
If yes on either of these questions then they have no, I repeat no boast over the USA (not even close)!
Thank you very much......-----Bart

 

I don't recall ever having this discussion with you before, and I don't think you remember it since you are accusing me of being inconsistent. I am very consistent on this point. I always have been.
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Pastor Larry,
You may very well be right about us never having dealt with this I have had so many respond and run...I have lost track of them now. I will be very careful from now on about making that statememt.
Tell me what you would do if you were in this situation, (this is an actual incident in my ministry). Husband and wife are having marital problems and both are professing Christians going to church (Baptist Church). The wife came to my wife and I and told us that her husband was out in adultery with several women and still requiring a conjugal relationship with her. (This was recent common knowledge and he admitted it in the household) She ask us what should she do. The life at home had degenerated to a scream fest with him overpowering her in front of their small to teenage children. The counselors from the "big time Indianapolis not for profit (Christian) church seminar people" (so as to not name names) told her she must stay in the home and submit to her husband in hopes that she might win him back and see him rededicate his life. What would you tell her to do? Stay home and submit to his authority or move?
I will wait your reply.
Thanks -------Bart

 

Bartimaeus


"1)require individual tax liability to support any established religion (Germany requires for Catholicism/Lutheranism or you must opt out after court and civic publicity)?"
''
The Kirchensteuer (reli-tax) is a thing of the past now in Germany.
As far as I know both Sweden&Switzerland pass with flying colours.

"2)Have a history in the last 200 years of being controlled by a religious power or political dictatorship?"
''
If you use a suitably broad definition of political dictatorship, I'd say you'd win.

 

This is an interesting point you make here. Under the Constitution, which the CP calls a Godly and Biblical blueprint for government, the people ordain the and appoint the government. However, in the Bible, it says that God ordains and appoints the government. Sounds like it is a bit different.

I think that if you believe that the only say in our government is the vote of people and God has no hand in it, then yes, you are correct. However, if we believe that God, in his sovereignty, ordains our government, then rebellion to his appointed government is rebellion against God and his appointed government is his agent of wrath and justice.

Now, there is an instance in the Bible where I think Peter makes a statement about obeying the law of God rather than the law of man. If the two conflict, then obviously, you must follow God.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Let me ask you the same question that I asked in my last post in a different way. Does the Bible teach that we should appoint and ordain and control our government, or does the Bible teach that God ordains the government and that we should obey the laws of the government unless it directly goes against God's law? Doesn't the Bible teach that if one rebels against the government, they are rebelling against God? Doesn't the Bible teach that God has set up the government to carry the wrath of God on evildoers?

Now the big question: Does the Constitutional form of government as you understand it (we ordain the government, not God, and should rebel against the government if we don't like what they are doing) contradict the Bible? If so, how could we call the CP a Christian and Biblical party when they endorse a form of government which is in direct rebellion to what they Bible teaches?

Joseph Botwinick