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Featured Romans 4 - impute - count - reckon

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Jul 12, 2012.

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  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Thats false Teaching, the Lord God is the believers Righteousness ! Jer 33:16

    In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

    Isa 54:17

    No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

    1 Cor 1:30

    30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

    Abraham was given Faith to embrace and rest in Christ the Seed being His Righteousness !
     
    #21 savedbymercy, Jul 12, 2012
  2. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Something to know about imputation ! Imputation in itself makes no internal change in its subject, just as when Christ had the sins of the Elect imputed to Him, it did not effect or infuse any sin in Him, Neither does His Righteousness imputed to the elect effect any internal change in them. Its an act of the Mind of God, He reckoning it to be based upon His own principals of Justice and Righteousness; For it [Imputation] is a immanent act of God's Mind.

    Also, the fact that Christ is said [in the Divine Purpose of God] to be slain from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8,it serves to reason that in the Mind of God, Sin was imputed to Him that early, and if on Him, never on the Elect themselves, If God never purposed it, then it never happened !
     
    #22 savedbymercy, Jul 12, 2012
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Quite correct that imputation makes no internal change in its subjects but is totally a legal position before God. However, God's purposed righteousness for his elect is not the same as God's application of that righteousness to His elect and once again you need to go learn what it means "I have purposed it; I WILL DO it" (Isa. 46:11) demonstrating very clearly that mere purpose is not actual performance by God.
     
    #23 The Biblicist, Jul 13, 2012
  4. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    I do not need your approval !

    Thats True, but the Elect are Righteous before the Application of it which is the New Birth. But even after the New Birth the Elect are no more Righteous in God's reckoning than they were born only after the flesh !
     
    #24 savedbymercy, Jul 13, 2012
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You two-faced hypocrite how do you think you started the very next paragraph below? "Thats true" is how you started it! Should I respond "I do not need your approval"???????? Wise up!



    Imputation not regeneration is what provides LEGAL righteousness before God just as imputation not anything changed in the person of Christ made him a sinner before God. Sin was not imputed to him until he was on the cross and righteousness is not IMPUTED to the elect until they believe in the cross as they are "JUSTIFIED BY FAITH"!

    Regeneration makes an actual change in the person of the elect whereas justification applies the LEGAL position to the elect and it is not applied until they BELIEVE in Christ even though God had purposed their justification before the world began (Rom. 8:30) as Paul repeatedly states we are "justified BY FAITH" in addition to being justified by God's eternal purpose! Go learn what Isaiah 46:11 means and stop confusing God's purpose with God's application as His purpose is null and void and meaningless unless "I WILL DO IT"
     
    #25 The Biblicist, Jul 13, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2012
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    NO faith placed into the work and person of jesus, no justification/legal standing before the father!
     
    #26 Yeshua1, Jul 13, 2012
  7. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    I know, The elect are legally Righteous by Imputation before they are regenerated.

    The elect were legaly Righteous before the world began, having not their sin and condemnation imputed to them, but to Christ.

    Christ in the Divine Purpose was slain from the foundation Rev 13:8

    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Slain by the imputed sins of the elect, so the sins of the Elect were never in the Purpose of God imputed to them, that is their Justification and Righteousness.

    Paul preached this 2 Cor 5:19

    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    The elect never had their sin and its condemnation laid to their charge, never !
     
    #27 savedbymercy, Jul 13, 2012
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    In other words, you do not believe in "justified by faith"?


    Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    But rather you believe in justified BEFORE and WITHOUT faith!

    Your problem is very clear! You attempt to separate and isolate the Covenant Parties and their committments to the covenant from each other as though One aspect completes the whole covenant of redemption WHICH IT DOES NOT and which cannot be done apart from the Other Two Parties and their committments.

    God's Purpose, God's provision, God's application are not one and the same but that is precisely how you treat them.

    Go learn what it means "I HAVE PURPOSED it; I WILL DO it" until you learn that the purpose accomplishes NOTHING but only determines what is to be done and it is the DOING of it that brings it to pass.

    God purposed my justification but that only justified me by DESIGN

    God provided for my justification in the Person and work of Christ but that only PURCHASED my justification


    God applied the PURCHASED redemption to my person in time and space and then I was "saved" then I was "regenerated" and then I was "justified BY FAITH" and not until then.
     
    #28 The Biblicist, Jul 13, 2012
  9. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    You see everyone that has imputed Righteousness will be given imparted Righteousness sooner or Later, that is what Paul means Rom 4:22-25

    22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

    23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

    24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

    25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


    The believing on Christ is evidence that Righteousness has been imputed ! All down through age, believing is the Evidence of Imputed Righteousness, and we believe because of the Life of imparted Righteousness by the New Birth, which basis was the imputed Righteousness !
     
    #29 savedbymercy, Jul 13, 2012
  10. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Yes ! That occurs when one is Born Again and given Faith as a fruit of New Birth, but that is only Justification being revealed !
     
    #30 savedbymercy, Jul 13, 2012
  11. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    When Paul writes being Justified by Faith Rom 5:1, He is merely stating that Faith has embraced what the Blood of Christ accomplished alone Rom 5:9

    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    The Resurrection is evidence of Justification by Blood Rom 4:25

    25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.
     
    #31 savedbymercy, Jul 13, 2012
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You do not believe what Paul says. You read into Paul words "Much more then, HAVING BEEN justified" but that is not what He says is it?

    Rom. 5:1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Romans 5:1 "BEING" is what Romans 5:9 "BEING" refers to not HAVE BEEN as you interpret it.


    "for our justification" simply defines its PURPOSE not its provision!
     
    #32 The Biblicist, Jul 13, 2012
  13. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    When Paul writes being Justified by Faith Rom 5:1, He is merely stating that Faith has embraced what the Blood of Christ accomplished alone Rom 5:9

    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    The Resurrection is evidence of Justification by Blood Rom 4:25

    25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.
     
    #33 savedbymercy, Jul 13, 2012
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    his death(shed blood) upon the Cross is basis that allows the Lord to save us, but we need to have faith in jesus to have God apply that grace towards us!
     
    #34 Yeshua1, Jul 13, 2012
  15. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    The Elect are born into this World Justified before God, they never had sin imputed to their Charge, which means they never were born as Transgressors.

    For sin cannot be charged unless a Transgresson aganst the law can be found !

    The strengeth of sin is the Law 1 Cor 15:56

    The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the

    God does not impute sin where there is no Law Rom 5:13

    (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    And the World of the Elect never had sin imputed to them 2 Cor 5:19

    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
     
    #35 savedbymercy, Jul 13, 2012
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Justification is by faith and faith alone and faith only. Regeneration produces faith but it is faith that applies POSITIONAL LEGAL justification before God.

    God's purpose did not apply positional legal justification before God.

    Christ's redemption did not apply positional legal justification before God any more or less than the Father's purpose applied it - not at all!

    Only the Holy Spirit's part of the Eternal Covenant makes application to the elect and the HOly Spirit alone! The Father does not and neither does the Son's work.
     
    #36 The Biblicist, Jul 13, 2012
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Sbm has a situation in which sinners are already reconciled back to God and justified before even being born again!
     
    #37 Yeshua1, Jul 13, 2012
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You have to omit the word "justified" from these verses don't you? Each text says we are "justified by faith" but you deny that! Instead you replace the word "justified" with your words "merely stating that faith has embraced." However, we are not speaking of the OBJECT of faith but the consequence of faith and that is presented in the text by the word "JUSTIFIED" which you OMIT or EXPLAIN AWAY!

    You deny we are "justified BY faith"
     
    #38 The Biblicist, Jul 13, 2012
  19. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Slander and misrepresentation, this is my belief on Rom 5:1 Justified by Faith:

    When Paul writes being Justified by Faith Rom 5:1, He is merely stating that Faith has embraced what the Blood of Christ accomplished alone Rom 5:9

    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    The Resurrection is evidence of Justification by Blood Rom 4:25

    25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.
     
    #39 savedbymercy, Jul 13, 2012
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The OBJECT that faith embraces is the Person and finished redemptive work of Christ - you are simply identifying the OBJECT of faith while ignoring the term "justified." However it is "by faith" and thus at the point of faith the action of justification is acquired. Not WITHOUT faith, but "BY FAITH."

    Verse nine merely defines the basis for justification which is the object of faith but does not deny the action of justification occured at the point of faith.

    Romans 4:25 merely asserts the divine purpose but does deny the time of justification which Romans 5:1 does define at the POINT OF FAITH.

    In reality your interpretation DENIES what the text explicitly states was accomplished "BY FAITH." In stead, you are really denying that "BY FAITH" any justification occurred at all but rather you are asserting they were already justified by the cross and by eternal purpose and NEVER "BY FAITH."
     
    #40 The Biblicist, Jul 14, 2012
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