1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Romans 5:12

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Van, Feb 11, 2020.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    13,866
    Likes Received:
    251
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (NASB)

    Every translation I have found translates this verse in the same way, ending with "because all sinned" indicating all humans sinned. However, another verse indicates that babies in the womb have done nothing good or bad.
    However, abortion has murdered millions of those who had not done anything bad.

    Two answers have been postulated, they had sinned because they were "guilty" of Adam's sin. However, this seems to violate the teaching that God does not punish the son for the sins of the father. The other, as a consequence of Adam's sin, all humans are "made sinners" and thus the correct understanding of Romans 5:12 is all are in a sinful separated from God state. However, that is not what the verse seems to say.

    Does anyone have an answer to this difficulty?

    Is it within the historical range of meanings to understand "sinned" to mean to be in a sinful state? Same issue with the verse "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Again, could the idea be all are in a fallen sinful state, separated from the glory of God?
     
    #1 Van, Feb 11, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
  2. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    1,306
    Likes Received:
    367
    Faith:
    Baptist
    [Matthew 22:37-39 NIV] 37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

    Has the unborn done this?
    Even if the unborn (or a man claiming to live a sinless life because he was born quadriplegic and is incapable of movement) claims to have DONE nothing evil (no sin of commission), has he done all that God requires or is he still guilty of s sin of omission.

    Remember, God judges the heart and mind as well as actions ...
    [Matthew 5:27-28 NIV] 27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

    So the question is "Does the unborn love God?" and "Is anyone capable of loving God without God's grace?" Failure to love God MOST is the first and greatest sin.
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    38,928
    Likes Received:
    1,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God reckon the judgment of the fall to Adam to all after Him to be born in him, same way, He reckons eternal life towards all now found in Christ, we call that Federal Headship.....
     
  4. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    1,306
    Likes Received:
    367
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Good theory, but can you make a scriptural case for it that does not suggest Universalism? (If everyone without exception is GUILTY because of Adam, then should not everyone without exception be FORGIVEN because of Jesus?)
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    38,928
    Likes Received:
    1,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    those who are in the new covenant have to receive Jesus thru faith, so that would get back into Election and predestination!
     
  6. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    1,306
    Likes Received:
    367
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ... or "Federal Headship" is incorrect. EVERYONE really is descended from Adam, so we can inherit a fallen nature from Adam just as we inherit all of the other attributes that make us a human being rather than a Polar Bear. Not everyone is believes so not everyone is an adopted brother of Jesus and a child of God.

    I am not stating as fact that Federal Headship is wrong, just that it has not been proven to exist from scripture (in this topic) and there are other "logical" explanations (which also, may or may not be correct).
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    38,928
    Likes Received:
    1,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Paul though used this to tie together Adam and the Second life giving Adam, Jesus, correct?
     
  8. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    1,306
    Likes Received:
    367
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Paul both compared the similarities and contrasted the differences between Adam and Christ ...
    • [Romans 5:12-21 CSB] 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, in this way death spread to all people, because all sinned. 13 In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to a person's account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam's transgression. He is a type of the Coming One. 15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if by the one man's trespass the many died, how much more have the grace of God and the gift which comes through the grace of the one man Jesus Christ overflowed to the many. 16 And the gift is not like the one man's sin, because from one sin came the judgment, resulting in condemnation, but from many trespasses came the gift, resulting in justification. 17 Since by the one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive the overflow of grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18 So then, as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is justification leading to life for everyone. 19 For just as through one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 The law came along to multiply the trespass. But where sin multiplied, grace multiplied even more 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace will reign through righteousness, resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    • [1 Corinthians 15:20-22 CSB] 20 But as it is, Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
    • [1 Corinthians 15:45-49 CSB] 45 So it is written, The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; like the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we will also bear the image of the man of heaven.
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    38,928
    Likes Received:
    1,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    if we stay in adam, we have spiritual death and one day the Second death, but if now in Christ....
     
  10. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    1,306
    Likes Received:
    367
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree 100%.
    That just does not prove "Federal Headship", it proves that man is fallen and Salvation is found in no other place than Jesus Christ.
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    38,928
    Likes Received:
    1,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    the concept that Adam and Jesus each took a test before God on the behalf of all those to be found in them is!
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    13,866
    Likes Received:
    251
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This seems to claim even though the unborn babies have done nothing bad, they chose to sin. Not likely the right answer.
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    13,866
    Likes Received:
    251
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It seems no one else is willing to tackle this issue. The only solution I see is to understand "all have sinned" is all are out side the mark because they were made sinners.
     
  14. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    1,306
    Likes Received:
    367
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Do unborn babies Love God?
    (It is the first and greatest commandment, so to violate the greatest commandment IS to sin!)

    • [Matthew 22:36-38 NIV] "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.

    So you tell me, "Do unborn babies Love God?"
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    13,866
    Likes Received:
    251
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Not to put too fine a point on it, Sir, but is the lack of love for God something "bad?" Please do not waste another post avoiding the issue. The only solution I see is to understand "all have sinned" is all are out side the mark because they were made sinners. Therefore unborn babies have "sinned" not because of a lack of love, but because they are in a separated from God sinful state.
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    3,461
    Likes Received:
    288
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Romans 11:11, ". . . For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; . . ."
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    38,928
    Likes Received:
    1,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    the effects of the fall was to give to all save Jesus spiritual death and sin natures!
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    38,928
    Likes Received:
    1,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There have been conceived in sin!
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    13,866
    Likes Received:
    251
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So "all have sinned" means all volitionally chose to be bad? What a waste to try to discuss the bible with the denial and deflection infestation.
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    13,866
    Likes Received:
    251
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Apparently this post indicates agreement, the unborn have not done anything bad (evil) and therefore have not actually sinned by commission. Also their lack of belief is not counted as something they have done bad either.
    Therefore, all have sinned means all are in a separated from God sinful state.
     
Loading...