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Romans 7:14-24

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Deacon, May 14, 2009.

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  1. Regenerate man

    17 vote(s)
    65.4%
  2. Unregenerate man

    8 vote(s)
    30.8%
  3. Don't know/don't care

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Undecided

    1 vote(s)
    3.8%
  1. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
    For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
    If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
    Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
    For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

    Romans 7:14-23 AV 1873
     
  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd New Member

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    I believe Paul is speaking hypothetically of the unregenerate man, still enslaved to sin. Many of the words and phrases in the passage refer to the slave trade.

    Paul has personified sin as a master who owns the unregenerate. Paul is saying the unregenerate man's will is enslaved to sin. Sin controls the person until finally giving the person to death (also personified as a king reigning in the world)

    When you read the rest of chap.7 and the beginning of chap. 8, you see the enslaved man crying out "who can deliver me from this body of death" or "who can deliver me from this body belonging to death master" "Deliver me" is also a slave term, related to redemption...purchasing the slave.

    The answer is Jesus Christ who frees the enslaved person from sin and death by His own death on a cross.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  3. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member

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    Regenerate....I think he is speaking of his new nature vs the flesh. Before I was saved I never struggled with sin. But when I got saved the war was on!
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    If Paul is speaking of the unregenerate man how could he say: "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man" ?
     
  5. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    It seems to me that he's saying that he cannot find righteousness in the law, i.e., that he cannot become good through the law.

    As a good Jew, Paul did delight in the law and wanted to follow it. In this passage, he shows that that was futile. The law is good but man is carnal and enslaved to sin; he cannot be good or righteous through the law.

    This goes along with his statements that the law showed him his sin.
     
  6. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I agree with above :thumbs:
     
  7. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Ain't that the truth.
     
  8. canadyjd

    canadyjd New Member

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    As an unregenerate Jew, Paul delighted in the Law of God and did everything he could to keep it.

    As Marcia said, only after his encounter with Jesus did he realize it was futile, he needed a Savior, somone to redeem him from the curse of the Law.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  9. Shortandy

    Shortandy New Member

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    I say regenerate. Go ahead and finish the chapter and read verse 25. He is praising Christ for that through Him he was able with his mind to serve the law.

    I believe it is simply Paul addressing the war that wages in the regenerate, the saved.
     
  10. annsni

    annsni Administrator
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    I agree. He's speaking in the present, not past tense. I don't know what the Greek tense is but in English, it's present tense. He's speaking of himself now.
     
  11. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    But, this was not the case for Paul. As a devout Jew, he loved God's law, but he struggled to keep it. In fact, he COULD NOT keep it. Martin Luther felt this same struggle as an RC monk. He struggled to do right but found that sin was a constant presence that he could not defeat. I think the balance of the evidence on this passage is that Paul is speaking of the experience of a religious person who knows God's law and desires to do it, yet finds that he cannot. Paul finds the answer in the latter part of chapter 7 and in 8: "O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death!?! I thank God through Jesus Christ my Lord...!" When the unregenerated but very moral Pharisee, Saul met Jesus Christ he found the answer to his struggle with sin.
     
  12. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I had prepared a post suggesting that verse 25 should be included but apparently I did not submit.
     
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I realize that paul delighted in the Law but he said he delighted in the inward man. I believe that Paul uses that term to indicate the spiritual nature of man which he states in Ephesians 2 is dead.
     
  14. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Our small group is studying the book of Romans

    I've been encouraging them to understand Paul's arguments and the flow of the book.

    • Given the argument of the book, it seems to me to be an unregenerate man.
    • By personal experence, I'd say it was regenerate man (a carnal Christian).
    • An by parallel passages, (in particular Galatians 5), I'd once again side with regenerate man.
    I chose the easy way :eek:
    I taught from the 'carnal Christian' point of view; it seemed to be more applicable to the group.

    ...but chock me up as the one "undecided" vote, leaning strongly toward the unregenerate side.

    Rob
     
    #14 Deacon, May 15, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2009
  15. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Rob, there is no doubt that the NT teaches that there is a stuggle within the Christian to live a life pleasing to God. I think there is a passage in I Cor that teaches this and it sounds similar to the Romans passage. However, based upon the argument in the book or Romans, I think the view that Paul is speaking of an unregenerant person in this passage prevails. I lean the way you lean.
     
  16. MB

    MB Active Member

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    I would agree this is a picture of a saved man but I still wonder where our freedom from sin really is. I fight it every day. I'm ashamed of being a sinner but try as I may and pray as I may I still sin.

    When I was young I thought it would get easier but instead it seems to get harder. There seems to be temptation all around me every where I go even in Church. I guard my eyes because it seems this is how temptation gets in. So I pray endlessly I consider Him in everything and sin is still with me. It's just a casual thought away.
    MB
     
  17. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Our freedom is from the penalty of sin and the power of sin. We still sin but we are not in its power (unwillingly) because we do have the ability through the Holy Spirit to resist.

    However, I don't think this is the saved man, but rather the man who is trying to be righteous under the law. In the context of Romans and where Paul is going from Rom. 1 through 8, it makes sense.

    I think it does get harder because as we grow in Christ, we become more sensitive to sin and see it more than we used to. That is actually a good thing.
     
    #17 Marcia, May 18, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 18, 2009
  18. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    I voted for the Regenerate man for many of the reasons already posted.
     
  19. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    It is in the Greek present tense (most of it). People try to say it is "Historical present", but it simply does not fit the pattern. It bounces back and forth...

    The fact is, is that it IS present tense. Paul is speaking of these trials that he is having, NOW. How can an unregenerate man say "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord"? Please notice the "Ara", right after this phrase, which is a concluding particle, indicating a reason for the previous statement.

    In other words "Thank be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord". Why? Because (Ara) although I serve sin with my flesh, my inner man serves the Law of God.

    Please note that in Chapter 8, Paul states that the mind of an unregenerate man CANNOT serve the law of God (8:7). This precludes any possibility of the Romans 7 man being unregenerate, as it states explicitly that he DOES serve the Law of God with his mind.
     
  20. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    But can't this passage be Paul talking as someone under the law who then realizes the saving grace of Christ? When he says "thanks be to God," he speaks as the one who realizes the salvation of Christ.

    7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,


    This verse says that the unregenerate man cannot subject himself to the law of God, not that the unregenerate man cannot "serve the law of God."

    Jesus even commended the Pharisees at one point and holds them up. I'm in a hurry now and will have to look that up later.
     
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