Romans 7:14-25

I do not think this a Biblical position. I politely suggest you are "reading in" a "body-soul" dualism that, while widely believed, is not really a Biblical idea. This ia whole 'nuther discussion that we may need to have.

That may be so, but that does not mean the "I" in Romans 7 is experiencing this, since it is, of course, perfectly plausibe that the non-believer is also mired in a state of sin-induced separation from God.

 

Calvinists think that there is only one kind of people, and that is that they are all totally depraved. That no one can do any good; however, Jesus tells us even the wicked love their own.
This thread is about Romans 7. This conversation is about chapter 7, where Paul is speaking of his condition before he is saved. Chapter 8 is about life through the Spirit.

Jesus tells us that light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of the light because their deeds were evil. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.
There are people who live by the truth, not everyone only loves darkness.

Galatians 5:17 is about life by the Spirit. Galatians 5 does not support your ideas about Romans 7, for Romans 7 is not about a person with the Spirit.

Jesus tells us even the wicked love their own. Calvinists say all are totally depraved and can do nothing good. There is nothing in the Bible that says all humans are totally depraved. There is no scripture that says we cannot believe in God after learning of Him. That is a manufactured belief.

 

Note this from Romans 7:

For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin

A Christian sold in bondage to sin? I do not how this is possible, since this is precisely state from which a Chrisitian is delivered, as Romans 8 makes very clear.

With all due respect, the way many try to retain the position that this "I" is a Christian is to introduce this curious, non-Biblical distinction between a "soul" and a "body". They can then say that the above text is describing the "body" part of a believer whose "soul" is otherwise "saved".

This cannot work for a number of reasons, not least because this soul - body dualism was never part of the Jewish worldview. It is a Greek idea that has influenced western culture and which we impose on these texts.

The basic misunderstanding is this: When Paul speaks of a "spirit-flesh" distinction, he is not talking about a "physical vs non-physical" distinction, he is talking about a "fallen man" vs "redeemed man" distinction. We will probably need to get into this in more detail.

 

However, Romans 7 is speaking of those under the law! Sin seized the opportunity affored by the commandment, to those under the law.

Romans 7:8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead.

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, Romans 2:14.

There are two kinds of people, and not how you claim. There are the Jews, the Gentiles, and they become one when they are saved.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, Ephesians 2:14.

There is not all totally depraved then the saved. You have been shown the truth by the scriptures.

 

I suggest that a fine-grained reading of the text shows that it is indeed the Law of Moses that Paul is writing about. The following text makes the case:

Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “(YOU SHALL NOT COVET.”

This is a clear reference to the Law of Moses. Paul is referring to one of the 10 commandments - the one about "not coveting".

And the 10 commandments are part of the Law of Moses.

There are other arguments, appealing to the broader context of the entire letter, that this is indeed the Law of Moses.

I hope to deal with your objections in later posts. Even though we fundamentally disagree about this text, I suspect we agree that this is a fascinating argument that Paul is making.

As will become clear, I believe that the person in Romans 7 is specifically the unbelieving Jew. And, yes, I am fully aware that Paul uses "I" - I have an explanation for that to come later.

 

Andre, I for one certainly believe your comments are valid and your demeanor in debate exceedingly kind and in keeping with Christian charity.:thumbs:

 

You are implying that there are no Jews in the audience. You are also implying that Paul would not speak of Jewish things to Gentiles, but then further in your argument you say that the law was also for the Gentiles.

This is about Gentiles who Jesus has saved. Even though Gentiles may have heard of the law of Moses their whole lives because Moses was preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath, the Gentiles did not have the law of Moses to obey.

Paul was speaking of himself in the “I” because he was reflecting back to before Jesus saved him. He was describing his condition before when he only had the law to follow.

Romans chapter 8 concludes to what happens to the man who before only had the law to follow. Romans chapter 8 is about life through the Spirit.

 

You are trying to be rude. My answers were biblical. If you do not like my answers, then you do not like the word of God.
Andre does not agree with you. Let us see if you can be kind to him while he tries to show you correct beliefs about Romans 7.

 

I do not think this really works. Let's say that I agree with you that a distinction can be drawn between our "position in Christ", on the one hand, an our justification, on the other.

Your argument appears to be this:

1. The description (in Romans 8) of the person “delivered from the law of sin and death” is a characterization of a believer's "position in Christ".
2. The description (in Romans 7) of the person “subject to the law of sin and death” is a characterization of a believer "in process" of being sanctified.

I believe there is at least one major problem with each prong of this position.

Regarding point 1: Romans 8 - where have the person set free from the law of sin and death - goes on at great length to characterize the victorious life that such a person manifests, culminating with a grand statement about our being molded unto Christlikeness. This is rather inconsistent with the notion that being "set free from the law of sin and death" focuses on justification as a positional state. In fact, if anything, the actual text of Romans 8 suggests that a life of obedience, and not a positional state is what it means to be set free from the law of sin and death.

Regarding point 2: The person in Romans 7 cannot really be idenitified with a person who is, as you suggest "being delivered progressively by the work of the Holy Spirit ". The person in Romans 7 is entirely enslaved (even though his mind can accept the wisdom of the law). A careful examination of the statements Paul makes reveals a person who is basically unable to do the good he wants to do. I do not see how this can possibly be said of the Christian.

 

The fact that Paul wanted to do good disproves Calvinism. Calvinists claim that no one can want to do good towards God, not without first being saved and born again. Romans 7 proves Calvinism is false, as do many other scriptures.

 

>The fact that Paul wanted to do good disproves Calvinism. Calvinists claim that no one can want to do good towards God, not without first being saved and born again. Romans 7 proves Calvinism is false, as do many other scriptures.

ABSOLUTELY WRONG! Calvinists claim that if anyone does good or wants to do good it is because the Holy Spirit is working on him.

from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_grace

In the words of Reformed scholar Louis Berkhof, “[Common grace] curbs the destructive power of sin, maintains in a measure the moral order of the universe, thus making an orderly life possible, distributes in varying degrees gifts and talents among men, promotes the development of science and art, and showers untold blessings upon the children of men,” (Berkhof, p. 434, summarizing Calvin’s position on common grace). The various aspects of God's common grace to all mankind may be generally gathered under four heads:

Providential care in creation - God’s sustaining care for his creation, called divine providence, is grace common to all. The Bible says, for instance, that God through the Son "upholds the universe by the word of his power" (Heb. 1:2-3; John 1:1-4). God's gracious provision for his creatures is seen in the giving of the seasons, of seedtime and harvest. It is of this providential common grace that Jesus reminds his hearers when he said God "makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust" (Matt. 5:45). We also see evidence of God’s common grace in the establishment of various structures within human society. At a foundational level, God has ordained the family unit. Even pagan parents typically know that they should nurture their children (Matt. 7:9-10) and raise them to become responsible adults.

Providential restraint of sin - In the Bible, Paul teaches that civil authorities have been "instituted by God" (Rom. 13:1) to maintain order and punish wrong-doing. Although fallible instruments of his common grace, civil governments are called "ministers of God" (Rom. 13:6) that should not be feared by those who do good. God also sovereignly works through circumstances to limit a persons sinful behavior (Gen. 20:6, 1 Sam. 25:26).

In man's conscience - The apostle Paul says that when unbelieving Gentiles "who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, . . . They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them" (Rom. 2:14-15, ESV). By God's common grace fallen mankind retains a conscience indicating the differences between right and wrong. This may be based on the fact that human beings, though fallen in sin, retain a semblance of the "image of God" with which they were originally created (Gen. 9:6: 1 Cor. 11:7).

Providential blessings to mankind - Human advancements that come through the unredeemed are seen as outcomes of God's common grace. For example, medical and other technological advancements that improve the lives of both the redeemed and unredeemed are seen as initiated by common grace.
In summary, common grace is seen in God's continuing care for his creation, his restraining human society from becoming altogether intolerable and ungovernable, his making it possible for mankind to live together in a generally orderly and cooperative manner, and maintaining man's conscious sense of basic right and wrong behavior.

 

Greetings:

I do not believe Calvinism is Biblical, but I think billwald's objection has merit - he can assert that the "I" in Romans 7 some person, pre-destined to ultimate salvation, who has yet to actually accept salvation. So while I think Calvinism is not Biblical, I do not think that Romans 7 can make the case.

 

Begs the question, since you cannot assume that every reference to the Law of Moses will be explicit. We know from other places in the letter that Paul uses the simple phrase "the law" to refer to the Law of Moses. So you cannot assume that a phrase such as "the law of God" is not a reference specifically to the Law of Moses. After all, God is indeed the author of the Law of Moses.