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Romans 7, understanding Romans 7:7-25 from chapter 6:16-23

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Romans7man, Nov 5, 2011.

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  1. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    No I don't believe in sinless perfection, but all sin is a choice and no believer has to sin. If we could be so we would not need a Savior. However I do believe what the bribe says and that is that no one born of God practices sin.
    You mentioned Romans 7. That passage is not dealing with a person who is saved.

    You are also incorrect about 1John 5:18. It IS about a saved person.
    1John 3:9
    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
     
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The human body, and that is what he explicitly identifies as his continuing subject (vv. 18, 24,25) is sold under sin and the proof is that it will die. The saint is not glorified yet and so there is an aspect of his human nature that has not yet been redeemed from the POWER and PRESENCE of sin and death which is the wages of sin proves. Deliverance by Christ from sin in regard to our body is yet future. The flesh is indwelt by sin, corrupting by sin and finally dying and will be buried because of the indwelling presence and power of sin.



    First, one must recognize they have a problem and know the solution to that problem BEFORE they can be held accountable to deal with that problem. Romans 7:14-25 defines the problem. Romans 8:1-27 defines the solution to that problem. Hence, the responsibility is "put off the old man" and "put on the new man" or "mortify the deeds of the flesh" and be "led by the Spirit."



    Only by divorcing verse 24 from verse 25 are you able to maintain your past/present or lost/saved contrast. However, verse 25 proves that both are present.

    Second, it is "the body of this death" that he is talking about. I personally do not know of any living Christian that will avoid "death" in "the body" as the principle of indwelling sin will rule and reign over this body until Christ delivers it in the yet future from the grave.

    Paul is referring to the ancient custom of Roman guards. When a prisoner became troublesome to the guards, they would take a dead corpse and fasten it to the prisoner, face to face, arms to arms, leg to legs and make that prisoner live attached to that body. This is Paul's analogy of the believer who is still attached to a body where the presence and power of death (disease, decay, and finally physically death) still resides in the human nature. He is expressing in the most graphic way the agony of the believer whose inward man delights in the law of God as opposed to the lost man whose inward man is at enmity with God and not subject to the law of God.


    He is thanking God that there is deliverance from this condition for the child of God through Jesus Christ. Ultimately, full deliverance is only at the resurrection when the body is raised without the indwelling principle of sin. However, now there is deliverance through Jesus Christ by "mortifying the deeds of the flesh" through the power of the indwelling Spirit of God (Rom. 8:1-16). There is also deliverance from "the flesh" at physical death when the born again "inward man" is separated from "the body of this death."

    However, until physical death occurs, the child of God is stuck in "the body of this death" (v. 25) and there is NO REDEMPTION of the flesh while in this life as it will surely die. Hence, the law of sin shall continue to dominate the flesh right into the grave and the reborn man shall continue to delight in the law of God. This dichotomy will continue to the grave. However, Romans 8:1-27 provides the PRESENT solution for overcoming the power and presence of indwelling sin in "the body of this death." By faith we must put to death the deeds of the body and live by the power of the Spirit. When we do not then we EXPERIENCE death due to manifest sin which SEPARATES us from fellowship with God. Death is separation and sin separates the believer from fellowship with God and thus we EXPERIENCE death (disease, lack of fellowship, lack of joy, chastening, sorrow, etc.).





    I am sorry, but that is exactly what it is saying - "I" can't overcome sin, because "I" am carnal and sold under sin. Jesus said the same thing this way, "without me ye can DO NOTHING." Paul is making the case that the believer cannot overcome indwelling sin by his own will power or strength but MUST depend SOLELY upon the Spirit of Christ within him if any victory is to be EXPERIENCED in his life or otherwise he will EXPERIENCE a "wretched state" of frustration and failure every moment he attempts to defeat indwelling sin by HIS OWN ABILITIES.



    Paul is simply making the case that the born again man who has been given a new heart that loves and submits to the revealed will of God cannot live the Christian life in HIS OWN STRENGTH and why he cannot. Romans 7 is making the case that the redeemed man is not sanctified by the Law of God any more than he is justified by the law of God. He is making the case that just as the saint received Christ by faith so he must also "walk in him" by faith or else he will not EXPERIENCE victory but only defeat in his battle with indwelling sin. He is making the case that the saved man can "DO NOTHING" in Romans 7 without the Spirit of Christ in Romans 8 in the PROGRESSSIVE CONFORMATION in this life unto the image of Christ.
     
  3. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Paul is contrasting here what would happen for a Christian IF he decides to live out life in his flesh and "natural" power, with that of one who is living in power of the HS dwelling within Him now as a beleiver in Christ...

    one way bring futility and bondage to the flesh, other way bring freedom and liberty in Christ!
     
  4. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Good answer FAL.

    My objection would be that angels are angels and not human beings made in the image and likeness of God.

    They are of a different spiritual nature than we and are created as spirit beings and do not require being born again.

    That is probably the reason that scripture indicates they are not redeemable (or so it seems).

    Or, to quote a cliche "you are comparing apples and oranges".

    HankD
     
  5. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    No a Christian cannot live out there life in the flesh. To walk in the flesh is condemnation and no Christian can be condemned.

    Romans 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die (spend eternity in hell): but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live (spend eternity with Christ).

    No child of God ever lives in the flesh.
     
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The term "condemnation" in Romans 8:1 has reference to Romans 8:15-25 and the qualifying phrase "who walk NOT after the flesh" support this interpretation. Paul is talking about temporal and experiential "condemnation" rather than eternal condemnation in this context. Whenever a child of God walks after the flesh he experiences the condemnation described in Romans 8:15-25. Whenever he walks after the Spirit he experiences life or victory over sin.

    Death is more inclusive than physical or eternal death but involves all the TEMPORAL experiences that lead up to physical death (sickness, tribulations, sorrow, separation from the fellowship with God, etc.). Christians are still subject to the TEMPORAL experiences of death. When they walk after the flesh they experience temporary separation (death) from fellowship with God as well as the temporary consequences of sin due to their sins.

    When we mortify the deeds of the flesh through the indwelling Spirit we EXPERIENCE the life of God here and now in overcoming the world.
     
    #66 The Biblicist, Nov 16, 2011
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  7. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    That is incorrect. The term is always used to show judgment in the eternal state. It is speaking of the lost. No Christian can be separated from God temporally or any other way.
    The Lord never leaves or forsakes His children.
     
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Are you telling me that you have never been out of fellowship with God???? Is that not exactly what death is - separation. There are various sorts of death in scripture. There is spiritual separation between lost humans and God. There is physical separation between the material and immaterial aspects of man. There is eternal separation of the lost from God in Gehenna.

    However, there is TEMPORAL and EXPERIENTIAL separation between God and the saint whenever they sin - sin breaks fellowship which can only be restored by confession of sin.

    David repeatedly asked the Lord to "quicken" him and he was not referring to regeneration which was a pre-cross reality (Jn. 3).

    Ps 119:37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.

    Ps 119:40 Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.

    Ps 119:88 Quicken me after thy lovingkindness; so shall I keep the testimony of thy mouth.

    Here the terms "quicken" simply means fill me with thy Spirit or empower me by your Spirit to overcome sin and live the way I should.

    In the New Testament to be "filled" with the Spirit simply means to act by the power of the Spirit and this is synonymous with "putting on the new man" or "walking in the Spirit" or being led by the Spirit.

    You are either at all times living under the leadership of the Spirit or living under the living under the leadership of the flesh, the old man, indwelling sin.

    Are you telling us that you ALWAYS follow the leadership of the Spirit? Are you telling us you NEVER have to "put on the new man" but ALWAYS are filled with the Spriit? If not, then what is the only other alternative?
     
  9. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    I am telling you I have never been out of fellowship with God since I was saved. Before I was saved I never had fellowship. I tis the same for every person.
    Death when spoken of in scripture is used two ways. One is the obvious which is the body that dies. The other is a metaphor for ending up in hell. No child of God will ever be separated from God (die).
    John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    There is NO "TEMPORAL and EXPERIENTIAL separation between God and the saint" when we sin.

    Being led of the spirit is what happens in every believer or they are not believers.
    Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    Being filled with the spirit is something we do. The passage actually says be being filled. In other words our filling is always on going and never ending but it is up to us.

    I am just telling you what the bible says. You are trying to tell me what men say they experience and then make false claims about what the experience really is. I believe the bible.
    God never leaves or forsakes a believer. Fellowship never is broken. Sometimes it is not as pleasant as other times, but it is never broken.
     
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I realize our RELATIONSHIP with God is never broken and I realize that God's indwelling presence never forsakes us but I am not referring to either of these things. I am not talking about RELATIONSHIP or INDWELLING but I am talking about EXPERIENTIAL FELLOWSHIP? So you do not believe that sin in the life of a believer affects your FELLOWSHIP with God in any kind of EXPERIENTIAL level?

    You fail to understand that to be "filled" and to "walk" and to "put on" are synonymous in scripture for being LED by the Sprit.

    If a Christian is ALWAYS "filled" thus always walking in the Spirit and thus always following the leadreship of the Spirit then why would Paul repeatedly command Christians to "put off" the old man and to "put on" the new man? Why would he command them to be "filled"?

    Do you think you are FILLED with the spirit WHEN you sin? Do you think you are being LED by the Spirit WHEN you sin? Do you think WHEN you sin you need to "put off the old man" and "put on the new man"?

    Do you think WHEN you sin you are "walking" in fellowship with God?

    I realize that the child of God shall never die in the sense of spiritual separation from God but I am referring to experiential consciousness of God's presence and fellowship when sin enters your life? In other words, can sin rob you of the JOY of the Lord? Can sin rob you of the BLESSINGS of the Lord? Does sin in any way affect your fellowship and walk with God?
     
    #70 The Biblicist, Nov 16, 2011
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  11. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    The only "EXPERIENTIAL level" or change is the chastening we can experience if we sin and the limiting of answered prayer.

    And NO to "be "filled" and to "walk" and to "put on" are synonymous in scripture for being LED by the Sprit" is not all the same. Every believer is led by the spirit. Any person not being led is not saved.
    For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    That passage is present tense, continual action. Once it starts it never ends. Being filled is a command we have to be done by us.
    And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
    That is a command for us to do.

    "Do you think you are FILLED with the spirit WHEN you sin?"

    No if we sin we are not being filled with the Spirit.

    "Do you think you are being LED by the Spirit WHEN you sin?"

    It is true the Spirit does not lead us into sin, but prior to the sin He is leading us not to do it and at the point of the sin He leads us to turn from it so the leading never stops. All believers are always being led by the Spirit. Any person who is not is not saved.
    For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    " Do you think WHEN you sin you need to "put off the old man" and "put on the new man"?"

    The old man has already been crucified for the believer. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    For he that is dead is freed from sin.

    When Paul deals with the new man he is dealing with ever sinning at all, not the practice of sin since no believer can practice sin. Paul is saying we are to live with NO SIN! We are to live like Jesus.

    "Do you think WHEN you sin you are "walking" in fellowship with God?"

    Our fellowship with the Lord is not determined on if we sin or not. Our fellowship depends on who we are related to. A sin does not break fellowship. It changes it from peace and joy to conviction and in extremes death and taken home to be with Him but the fellowship never ends.
     
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Paul is simply declaring that all who are presently following the leadership of the Spirit are manifest children of God. He is neither denying or asserting that children of God always follow the leadership of the Spirit as the Spirit of God never leads any child of God to sin or to be in sin for any period of time. All children of God do righteousness but that does not assert or deny that children of God at times do unrighteousness also. You are makiing an assertion to be also a denial of the reverse and that text does not say that.

    So is "put on the new man" and "put off the old man." So is "walk in the Spirit" and not "after the flesh." So is follow the leadership of the Spirit!


     
  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Prove it with scripture.
    MB
     
  14. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practices) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.
     
  15. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Are you claiming this teaches living above sin? If not, then it does not help you at all because it then includes not merely the ability to sin but the fact that all true children of God do sin (I Jn. 1:8-10).

    Your problem remains the same. When, not if, you sin, does that require you to confess it and TURN from it???? Is not that TURNING mean that you have not followed the leadership of the Spirit and that you were not filled with the Spirit when committing that sin????

    Does not that require you to "put off the old man" or do you attribute that sin to the new man and to the Spirit of God?

    Again, the commands to "put on" and "put off" are given to Christians not to lost people. Your position makes those commands meaningless as you claim that was done at the point of salvation. Pray tell, why did Paul waste his breath COMMANDING Christians to do these things as he does use the imperative mode or mode of command making this equally a responsibility to do as being filled with Spirit??????
     
  17. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    First 1Jhon 1:8 is not speaking about a Christian. It is speaking about a lost person. The book was written to combat the teachings of the Gnostics. One of their teachings was they had never sinned.
    Look at the verse.
    If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    It does not say if we say we do not sin, but we have no sin, have never sinned.
    The last part is a description of an unbeliever. The part about have no sin is past present and future. These people are saying they have never sinned. So John then tells them if they will confess their sin God will forgive them.
    V 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Notice it says He will cleans them from all unrighteousness. That has already been done in a believer. This is about the Gnostics who were lost.

    So to fully understand what I am saying and the passage is saying in 2:4 click on this link;
    http://www.gerald285.com/web_media/BirthmarksofaBeliever.32.mp3
     
  18. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Apostle John is talking to Christians in 1 John, as the terms that he uses to call them by were always used to describe Christians, not unsaved peoples!

    Every reputable commentary would support John addrssing Christians as the ones to confess sins to God for forgiveness of their sins commited, and to be restoredto fellowship with the father...

    Which authors support your view in this?
     
  19. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    It is true that the letter is to Christians, but John is dealing with the false teachings of the Gnostics. In 1:9 he is appealing to those Gnostics to confess that they are sinners and get cleansed of all unrighteousness (saved) 1:8 and 9 is not for those who believe. Our sins are already forgiven. I am not seeking to get any authors to support my view and since I do not read what they write I don't know what thye say, but If they claim those passages are directed to Christians then they are in error.
     
    #79 freeatlast, Nov 16, 2011
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  20. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    please read the contex of first chapter by Apostle John is that he is addressing little children . AKLWAYS used to refer to Christians in bible, and that he wrote verses 8/9 to make sure that they would keep fellowship with God the father by work/thru jesus Christ!

    NOT the Gnostics that might be among them!
     
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