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Featured Romans 9

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Chowmah, Mar 3, 2012.

  1. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 (KJV)
    4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
    5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

    So this scripture tells you that you are amoung the predestined? All that say they believe claim the same. It certainly doesnt point to you being predestined. In truth Biblicist...you really aint sure are you....according to scripture and not according to your feelings
     
  2. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    This is about Paul explaining why God allowed the Gentiles to become children of God. The Gentiles were not running. The Gentiles were not willing. The Jews are the ones who had the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. See Romans 9:4. Again, Paul is explaining how the Gentile could obtain what they did not try to obtain…a relationship with God. Paul is explaining that it is because of God's mercy that He allowed Gentiles to be saved when they were not the ones who willed or ran.


    Romans 10:2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.
     
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Take note of verse 4 "knowing...your election of God"

    Take note of the first word in verse 5 "For" as this introduces evidence how to know your election of God.

    First, you can know it experientially by HOW the gospel came to you. It did not come "in word only" but in "power"

    It came to you in the Holy Ghost producing in them a manner of life like Paul

    It came to you in MUCH ASSURANCE

    Thirdly, you can know because Paul was an elect and they could compare themselves to him and his life to verify whether their salvation experience made them like Paul: "as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."

    Hence, he tells them they can know - v. 4

    He tells them HOW they can know - v. 6

    1. The gospel came to them more than in mere words but in power and demonstration of the HOly Spirit and with much assurance

    2. It came to them in a way that produced a MANNER of life like unto Paul's - a godly man.
     
  4. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    Ill go read it again
     
  5. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    Chowmah,

    I have more for you to understand about this. Read Romans 9:25-29. God will call the Gentiles 'my people' who are not my people. God will call them 'my loved one' who is not my loved one.' This is about the Gentiles. God had mercy on the Gentiles, the Gentiles who did not will or run.

    25 As he says in Hosea:

    “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
    and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”

    26 and,

    “In the very place where it was said to them,
    ‘You are not my people,’
    there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”[j]

    27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

    “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
    only the remnant will be saved.
    28 For the Lord will carry out
    his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”[k]

    29 It is just as Isaiah said previously:

    “Unless the Lord Almighty
    had left us descendants,
    we would have become like Sodom,
    we would have been like Gomorrah.”[l]
     
  6. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    I think you a doing a very good job catching the absurdities of those who claim a Calvinistic view in their beliefs to predestination.
     
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    So gentiles are saved when they are not "willing"? Are you and Moriah Gentiles?

    Look, Romans 9 begins by admitting that the Jews were not saved by simply being Jews (vv. 1-3) even though the Jews had all the advantages (vv. 4-5).

    There are lost Jews and there are saved Jews and the saved Jews require a supernatural birth in additon of a physical birth as a Jew (Jn. 3:1-6). The supernatural birth of Isaac is the symbol of being born of God supernaturally. Ishmael was born of Abraham by a completely natural birth but Isaac was supernaturally born. Both were the "seed" of Abraham by natural birth but Isaac's birth was symbolic of those who are really born of God among the Jews as was Paul.

    Why did God choose Isaac over the firstborn Ishmael? God chose Isaac over Ishmael just as God chose Jacob over firstborn Esau.

    This choice was not based upon What God foresaw as good or evil in either but according to God's purpose of grace (v. 11)

    So, in regard to salvation God loved Jacob more than Esau.

    So, in regard to salvation it is not him that "willeth" (like Ishmael, Esau) or him that runneth but of God that sheweth mercy upon whom He chooses to show mercy. Whom he does not choose (Ishmael, Esau, Pharoah) he does not show mercy.

    God has the right to sovereignly choose who he will save and who he will not out of fallen mankind just as the potter has the right to make one vessel unto honor and eternal life and another to destruction because he is dealing with fallen mankind who all deserve by justice destruction and so all he saves are vessels of MERCY and those he does not are already justly condemned.

    This is particular true of Gentiles who (Romans 9:24-31) never sought God in the first place. God determined to save them inspite of their ungodliness proving that all men are equally condemned and the Gentile does not deserve his mercy any more than the Jew does.
     
    #27 The Biblicist, Mar 3, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2012
  8. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    But like i sad before Biblicist everyone of every denomination that follow Christ can point to these scriptures and say yeah yeah. This is me.
     
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Of course, but that does not change the fact that these things are still provided by Paul to know your election.

    The problem is understanding how Paul defines these things not that they are not provided as evidences to know your election.

    Likewise, Peter provides a list of evidences that one can make their election sure (2 Pet. 1:1-11). Again, you have to rightly interpret what these things mean but that does not deny they are listed as evidences to verify election.
     
  10. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    Read it again Moriah. Id like to say even a broken clock is right twice a day. The Biblicist could be right in this case. I really do not want to believe it (it really doesnt sound like something God would do) but it is scripture and i would like to say something negative about it but right there in chapter 9 it tells you not to do so.

    The thing that makes me feel i should not stop looking into this chapter is whats found in next chapter

    Romans 10:9 (KJV)
    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Romans 10:12-13 (KJV)
    12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
    13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Neither of those scriptures point to predestination but a free will choice
     
  11. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    The Gentles were not willing WHEN GOD FIRST ALLOWED THEM TO COME TO HIM THROUGH JESUS.
     
  12. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    He is not right. I am sure. I hope that you do not fall into error.


    You have a long way to go if you want to research all that Calvinists believe. It is easy to fall into strange doctrine. You can never say that you were not warned.
    Remember this: Calvinists must go against many scriptures of God, in order to hold on to their false beliefs.

    Read my explanation again, about how the Jews were God's people, they were the ones with the will and they were the ones who were running, but God brought the Gentiles in, those who did not will and run, because God can have mercy on whom He wants to have mercy.

    Pray to God that you only want His Truth.
     
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    What most miss is that Paul is talking about "mercy" rather than justice or merit.

    If election was God arbritrarily selecting innocent unfallen mankind for heaven and hell then that would not only be UNjust and not a matter of mercy or merit.

    If election was God simply choosing those he foreknew would choose him than that would not be a matter of mercy but of merit because he chose those who DESERVED to be chosen by him.

    However, election by God in Romans 9 is in regard to already fallen condemned rebellious mankind that justly merit hell. Hence, election of any to be saved is a matter of pure MERCY and GRACE because they neither deserve it or want it.

    Hence, the potter calls those that will inherit eternal life to be vessels of "MERCY" and that election is not according to works (merit) but of grace.

    God has not only chosen some to salvation but also has chosen the means through which he will save them (Romans 10) which is spelled out in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

    Hence, you can know your election if the gospel does not merely come to your in word only and you make a intellectional decision. But if it comes to you in POWER and in the HOLY SPIRIT then it CHANGES you from a God hater to a God lover. It CHANGES you from a God resister and rebellious person to submission. Those who are objects of mercy are TRANSFORMED to something different than they were before rather than RELIGIOUS REFORMATION by your own intellectual determination. It is the difference from being CHANGED by God from one who resisted and hated God and proved that hated by disobedience to one who loves and submits to God.


    The elect have experience a SUPERNATURAL change they did not effect

    The lost religous man has simply chosen to REFORM himself by his own choice and power.
    versus deciding to change yourself by
     
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Which gentiles were those? Name them! Are you saying that God saves some gentiles against their will but saves others who are only willing? Where do you find that in Romans 9?

    The truth is that we choose God after God chooses us:

    Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


    The truth is we love God because he first loved us:

    1 Jn. 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


    The truth is that God makes his elect willing in the day of His power because His gospel does not come in word only but in power and in the Holy Spirit transforming us:

    Psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

    So it is not him that runneth nor him that willeth but of God that sheweth mercy!
     
  15. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    The scripture that says who are you man to talk back to God, that is because Jews who did not believe in Jesus were hardened and cut off, they were hardened and cut off so that the Gentiles could be grafted in.

    God hardened and cut off unbelieving Jews and left them all to disobedience like the Gentiles, so that God can have mercy on ALL.

    Paul is explaining that one should not question God and say something like, “Why did you harden me and still blame me if I was hardened.” Do you still not understand, Chowmah? God hardened them so that when Jesus was on earth they could not hear Jesus and believe, because only the lost sheep of Israel were to come to Jesus first.
    However, even the hardened and cut off Jews can get grafted back in, if they do not persist in unbelief! See Romans 11:23.

    God is not who Calvinists say. God is merciful to all.
     
  16. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    Hey Moriah, i will never follow a denomination that does not keep Gods sabbath day and His holy days. That ive studied for 20 yrs using only scripture to interpret scripture. That im sure of. As to predestination and how it sounds to me...Lean not to your own understanding. His ways are not our ways. We look through a glass darkly. And so on and so forth. The Biblicist could be right on this. Hey ole boy, you might be one of those who are predestined (if it is so). Well Moriah i would like to thank you and the Biblicist for talking to me on this matter. If you can find any scriptures to help me understand chapter 9 let me know. Have a good one.
     
  17. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    You do not know that God nailed the observance of Holy Days to the cross? WE in Christ do NOT have to observe special days. See Colossians 2.

    You are already in error.
     
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I would be glad to do a verse by verse expository commentary on Romans 9 with you if you would like to do that. I will not give you my personal opinion but will demonstrate what I am saying by context, grammar, syntax.

    Here is a clear outline:


    1. Israel is lost and so being a Jew does not mean you are a child of God - vv. 1-3

    2. Israel had all the advantages over Gentiles - vv. 4-5

    3. The only Jews that are saved are twice born Jews - vv. 6-8

    4. The only Jews that are saved are chosen Jews - vv. 9-11

    5. Redemptive love is elective even among Jews - vv. 12-13

    6. To those who believe elective supernatural birth is unfair - vv. 14-18

    7. To those who deny God has the right to have mercy only on those he chooses to have mercy - vv. 19-24

    8. This elective choice of God is equally true of any gentiles God saves - vv. 24-27

    9. It is only God's mercy that God saved any Jews - vv. 28-29

    10. The gentiles have only God to be praised for saving them and the Jews have only themselves to be blamed for rejecting Jesus Christ - vv. 30-33
     
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You will find that Romans 9 deal with INDIVDIUAL Jews and gentiles by INDIVDIUAL NAME and thus INDIVIDUAL salvation. Romans 10 deals with salvation on an INDIVIDUAL personal level.

    You will find that Romans 11 deals with Jews and Gentiles not individually or by names but by ETHNIC GROUPS "remnant" - "Israel" "Gentiles").

    Romans 11 deals with God's redemptive purpose in bringing salvation to the gentile nations through the rejection of Christ by Israel as a nation. Note that not all Israelites rejected Christ (Paul, Barnabas, Peter, etc.) but only Israel as a NATION rejected Christ. Also, the NATIONS of the Gentiles did not receive Christ but only individuals out of Gentile NATIONS receive Christ because of election (Rom. 11:5-6). However, when the Gentilies as NATIONS reject Christ, God will "graft...in again" the NATION of Israel and cut of the NATIONS of Gentiles.
     
  20. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    Brought up thread i started on Col.2{16} if you wish to discuss it with me
     
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