Featured Romans 9

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False teaching. The Israel that was cut off, the majority of the nation, was not the Elect of God ! There is no salvation ever for the None Elect.

If we read Rom 11:7

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

We find that the Election obtained the promise Salvation of Israel,people like Lk 2:30-32

30For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

31Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

And John the Baptist's Father Lk 1:68-73


68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

And of course the Election of Grace in Paul's Time, However, the Nation in general was blinded, and they are considered apart from the Election that obtained it.

So that means, the nation in genral that was blinded were not God's Elect, Both could not be God's Chosen !

There is no future salvation for the reprbates,period, no matter what ethnicity they are !

And Yes, Elect Jews and Elect Gentiles are the Israel of God ! Ethnic Jews who were not Chosen in Christ, the Head of the Church, are nothing but children of the devil as any other Ethnicity not chosen in Christ !

And in Christ all that racial division is done away with Eph 2:13-16

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Now if you or any other person bring racial distinctions into the Body of Christ, that is sinning against one of the key accomplishments of the Cross !

 

The Israel that was existing in Paul's day which was cut off is not the Israel of God that will be living at the coming of Christ. However, you miss the point altogther. God's purpose with Israel AS A NATION is not finished and Israel as a Nation has been cut off but AS A NATION will be grafted back in "again."

It is Israel as a Nation that is now the enemy of the gospel for YOUR sake and it is that same enemy of the gospel that is "BELOVED" according to election for the Father's sake (Rom. 11:28)

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

The same "they" presently cut off are the enemies of the gospel NOW - Israel as a nation - will be the same "they" as touching election will be saved when the fullness of the gentiles be come in.

 

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Thats right, it was the non elect, so there is no future salvation for the non elect !

False Teaching, individual jews as well as individual gentiles are grafted in by Faith. Rom 11:23

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

 

Paul is viewing Israel AS A NATION not as individuals per se. In God's redemptive purpose Israel AS A NATION will be saved and when Israel AS A NATION is saved it will consist at that time - all elect - as Romans 11:28 points out.

 

Paul makes a clear distinction between the nation and the elect in the nation Rom 11:7

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The rest here is National Israel, as in Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh after !

The Physical Nation of Israel was not God's Chosen People !

 

Yes, that is true. However, that does not deny that NATIONAL Israel may one day be composed of the elect and that is the case stated in verse 28.

 

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I know it is True, and that proves the rest of what you believe as error.

The very small remnant in National Israel, That did obtain what he sought for, that was Israel of God, God's Chosen People. The Physical Nation Israel was not God's Chosen People, never has been !

 

You are simply wrong and Romans 11;28 proves your wrong. The same "they" in the first part of the verse is the same "they" in the second part of the verse. The "they" does not refer to individuals' per se but to the NATION per se.

Just as an elect may not be saved at the first witness, so the NATION was not saved when Christ came and will not be saved until the TIME God has chosen - Rom. 11:25-28.

 

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No it does not, it cant contradict what is plainly the Truth of Rom 11:7 ! The Physical Nation Israel is distinguished from God's Chosen !

How can there be Salvation for those who are not God's Chosen ?

 

The distinction there is based upon the PRESENT STATE of the Nation which consisted PRESENTLY of non-elect as a Nation. That is not the case at the coming of Christ where THE NATION at that point in history is consistuted of elect individuals and Romans 11:25-28 proves that.

 

One does not become God's chosen People in the future, that is Heresy. People are God's Chosen before the foundation. You are teaching heresy, a group ,of people are not God's Chosen now, but can be later on. That is Hogwash !

 

You are confusing the entity of a Nation with that of an individual. You are correct about an individual because they remain the same individual and thus if they are not the elect they never will be the elect.

However, you are wrong about the entity of a nation because it does not remain composed of the same people from generation to generation. Hence the nation can be God's "elect" and it is stated to be over and over in scripture as God's elect which never changes and when the time the elect nation is brought to salvation the constitutent individual elements can all be elect as Romans 11:25-28 prove.

 

The Physical Nation of Israel that was blinded, is clearly not the election or chosen of God Rom 11:7

 

Read what I said!! The Nation at the time it rejected Christ was not constituted by elect individuals but at the second coming of Christ it is composed of individual elect. It remains the Elect Nation but the time of its actual salvaiton was not at the first coming of Christ but at the second coming of Christ.

 

The Physical Nation of Israel that was blinded, is clearly not the election or chosen of God Rom 11:7

The Physical nation was merely called as a type, but was never the Chosen save for the actual chosen !

14For many are called[National Israel], but few are chosen[The Israel of God].

There is no salvation for the non elect !

 

Now you are intentionally either ignoring or perverting what I have said. Just as an individual remains an elect through the period of unregeneracy until the actual time of regeneration so a nation remains elect through the period of constituent unregeneracy until the actual time of regeneration when all of its constitents are indivdual elect as well. (Rom. 11:25-28).

 

The Physical Nation of Israel is not, was not, will never be, the Chosen People of God. Rom 11:7 makes that perfectly clear !

As far as Rom 11:25-28 is concerned, see my thread :

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=73995&page=14

I have dealt with those verses !

 

Deut. 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

It was the PHYSICAL NATION OF ISRAEL that God "brought...out.....redeemed....from the hand of Pharoah"! It was Israel as a PHYSICAL NATION that God did "CHOOSE" unto himself "above all people that are upon the face of the earth."

Romans 11:28 proves that it is the "ISRAEL" which presently was the "enemies of the Gospel" that is God's covenant people "touching election" that will be saved at the coming of Christ:

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.


The very same Israel Pauls says "THEY ARE ENEMIES" concerning the gospel are the very same Israel Paul says TOUCHING ELECTION that "THEY ARE BELOVED"

Not two different kinds of Israel but the very SAME ISRAEL who presently are "ENEMIES" of the gospel is the very SAME ISRAEL that is "beloved" touching election.

 

Deut 7:6 is speaking to the Church at that time Chosen in Christ, which at that time was a very small remnant. The Physical Nation of ethnic jews, has been distinguished from the Chosen in Rom 11:7. The chosen in Deut 7:6 are the same as the election in Rom 11:7, Just a different generation of them is all !

 

Deuteronomy 7:6 is speaking to NATIONAL Israel just as verses 1-3 clearly demonstrate:

1 ¶ When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

Israel is spoken to as a NATION just as those "NATIONS"! God says to them there were "seven NATIONS greater and mightier than THOU" the Nation of Israel.

The entire context is clearly addressed to the WHOLE NATION of Israel and not some splinter group.

PROVE from the context that some splinter group (remnant) is being addressed!!! You cannot possibly do it except by mental gynastics, jerking scriptures out of context and arbritrarily making the mean what you want them to mean.

You have not yet overcome your problem with Romans 11:28 as it is those who ARE enemies of the gospel at the writing of Paul that ARE the elect at the coming of Christ and no amount of denial, mental gynastics can overturn that clear text:

Rom. 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

No amount of mental gynastics, twisting the text and context can deny that it is the very SAME ISRAEL that is being spoken as the present ENEMY of the gospel and yet BELOVED in regard to ELECTION!