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Ron Paul Odds Slashed Dramatically: 15 to 1 from 200 to 1

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by Rufus_1611, May 31, 2007.

  1. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Well I only watched the second half of the debate and the only point he addressed was military. So if he addressed some other issues in the first half I am unaware of that.

    However, separating himself with the military issue is a mistake in my book, especially when you are trying to get the GOP nomination.

    That's a broad generalization that I don't think helps matters. I am a conservative and I think his ideas of "no" preemptive war can be very dangerous. So does that make me a neo-con? I don't think so. I don't think labels are very becoming and again I certainly don't think they help resolve matters.

    Does it really matter whether or not he was asked about it? :) He's a politician. They know how to tie things together even when they aren't asked about them :)

    Well you hold out that optimisim if you want to. I try to stay within the realm of reality :) And when we are keeping it real those problems aren't going to be fixed on the go. We are way too far down the river in some of these areas.

    Not sure of what the point is here, based on it being a response to my last quote, but I would agree with it.
     
  2. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611 New Member

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    If the GOP wants a pro-war candidate they have 9 to choose from, 11 if you add Gingrich and Thompson to the mix. Ron Paul provides an alternative that otherwise is not available.


    It makes you one who supports neo-conservative principles. You used a label in your second sentence, I am using a label to describe a particular political philosophy. Nuking nations that don't do what we say is a Pax Americana, PNAC, Neo-Conservative philosophy. I'm not name-calling here, I'm describing philosophical and ideological differences. Neo-cons are military aggressionists, conservatives are not.


    So you would prefer that he avoid the question and spin it in a way that he doesn't answer it? If this is what you desire in a candidate, see Rudy McRomney.


    My realistic thoughts are that this empire, just like the ones before it are being betrayed from within and is on the verge of collapse. However, I don't desire to see it so and I still think it is worth fighting for (not the empire but the country). Besides, you don't fight the fights that you can win, you fight the fights that are worth fighting.


    It was a statement alluding to your belief that Christians shouldn't be involved in politics. I'm glad you are grateful for your freedoms but I am unsure how you expect to keep them if you are not willing to get involved.
     
  3. IronWill

    IronWill New Member

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    No, I don't disagree at all. But I'm failing to see your point.
     
  4. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    And probably one that is not wanted by a majority in the GOP ;) It doesn't make him a bad guy. Just don't think that's going to be a winnable position with the party ticket he's trying to gain.

    Again you are lumping people into categories. To say all conservatives are not military aggressionists is just not feasible. I'm a conservative and if Iran gains nuclear capabilities I would have no issue whatsoever if those capabilities were taken out.

    Do you think it is okay for Iran to gain whatever is necessary to build a nuke and have the possibility of sending such weapon to any lunatic with enough money?

    I don't want a candidate. I'll take whomever God chooses to put in the position. :)

    Well we absolutely agree here and that was one of the interesting points that the Star Wars documentary pointed out the other night.

    Okay makes more sense now. I don't expect to keep them. These freedoms are not promised by God. I am grateful to have them as long as He sees fit. Once they are gone I will continue to rely on His grace, which He said is sufficient.
     
  5. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    My point is that far too many Christians are relying on the secular to fix a spiritual condition. Government is never going to fix a spiritual problem no matter who you vote for. Our focus is in the wrong direction.
     
  6. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611 New Member

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    That may be, but he is running on his principles and his record, not running to win at the expense them.

    The policy of military aggression and pre-emptive war is a neo-conservative policy. I'm not trying to lump, I'm not trying to name call, it just is what it is.

    This ability and threat is already possessed by Pakistan, India, France, Russia, China, U.K., North Korea and in all likelihood, though undeclared, Israel. Which of these others should we preemptively nuke?


    Alright, so when Rudy gets the pro-abortion, pro-sodomite, anti-family, pro-cross-dressing vote and God puts before you an anti-abortion, anti-sodomite, pro-family, one who wears that which pertaineth to men candidate, is it your prayer that God will tinker with the Diebold machines and fix the vote for His candidate?


    I'm not familiar with this documentary. Is "Star Wars" a reference to SDI or the Lucas films?


    So be it. However, if the presbyterians, methodists, quakers, congregationalists and baptists in our founding years, accepted your view, there would not have been a Declaration of Independence, a Constitution or the Bill of Rights. You would have no cause to expect to keep those freedoms, for they never would've existed to begin with.
     
  7. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    With the exception of N. Korea, all the other players seem to understand the great casulty it would cause others and themselves should they use such a weapon. But should they show signs that they are willing to give these materials to terrorists they should be dealt with unless you want a nuke showing up on your front door step. I personally would rather not :)

    God is going to place into power whomever He chooses. It is not my job to speak against God's annointed whoever that ends up being.

    The Lucas films. It just debuted a few nights ago. It was on re-run the other night, so you might still be able to catch it although I'm not sure what channel it aired on. But anyone interested in politics would probably enjoy it.

    That is a true statement, but again I'm not sure what the point is. God does use the results of His people's mistakes to advance His cause. I continue to fail to see why I have to continue in their mistakes.
     
  8. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611 New Member

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    First, if I adhere to the philosophy that you are promoting then I shouldn't worry about it as God is going to nuke who He desires to nuke. Second, is it not presumptuous to think we know what Ahmidinejad is thinking? Is he such an ignoramous that he doesn't recognize that if he lobs a nuke at the United States, they will wipe out his country from the face of this earth?

    What of John the Baptist speaking against Herod? Would John stay quiet about a cross-dressing, 3 time divorcee, who is sympathetic to abortion and sodomy?

    I don't watch television so I wouldn't be able to watch a re-run. I do watch documentaries online though, so maybe I'll keep an eye out for it on Google video or something.

    I guess we differ as I have not yet concluded the founding of this country to be a mistake. However, of recent I am more sympathetic to the argument.
     
  9. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    I don't know how you would stretch what I'm saying that far, but you are entilted to I guess. I wouldn't :)

    No I don't think it is at all. I think he has made it very clear where he stands in regard to the United States.

    Can you be a little more specific please?

    He would call sin sin as we should.

    I wouldn't say the founding of this country was a mistake. However I would say that the disobedience of God's children in repsect to their rebellion to the authority that was placed over them was a mistake and something that should not be praised the way it is in America.

    They were rebels. I don't think God takes pleasure in rebellion to governmental authority. I don't see in Scripture where we are given an example that we are to rebel against the authority that is placed over us unless we are instructed to do something that directly violates God's instructions to us (see Daniel).
     
  10. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611 New Member

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    If you are not to stretch your involvement into voting for a candidate because God is going to anoint whomever He will, then why worry about who is going to nuke who. If God is going to pick the candidate for us, then surely He will pick who will be nuked and who won't be.


    You find him guilty of a speech or thought crime then? Nikita Kruschev was clear about his intent towards the United States, where was the preemptive tactical nuclear strike on the U.S.S.R.?

    "We will bury you without firing a shot!" - Kruschev


    You don't want to speak against "God's anointed" and yet there is precedence for doing so.



    That's a fair enough argument and one that should be considered.
     
    #90 Rufus_1611, Jun 6, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 6, 2007
  11. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    I think JJ is asking for a specific reference?

    Mark 6:17-18
    17 For Herod himself had sent forth and laid hold upon John, and bound him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife: for he had married her.
    18 For John had said unto Herod, It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother's wife.
     
  12. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Again I don't think you can make that stretch logically. God may raise one up with those intentions, but take them out with someone else. Whether or not someone is nuked or not is not chosen by God in my understanding.

    I think you very next quote from this man is evident that weren't going to resort to miliary action, so why would military action be needed?

    Where? Would James' example be the same example you would choose? And if so James' example is not speaking against God's annointed, but calling sin sin. We have every right and duty to call sin sin, especially if there is no plank in our eye regarding the matter.
     
  13. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611 New Member

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    I don't see how you can't. The individuals that are elected/selected are the ones that push the buttons to make those cute little clouds. If we are not to be involved in influencing who is elected, then why would we worry about who, when and where the buttons will be pushed?

    Kruschev made his intentions clear that he wanted us buried. Whether he used nukes or spit wads dipped in cyanide, dead is still dead. I would challenge you to find a statement that says Ahmedinejad plans to preemptively nuke America. His concerns are relative to the foreign policy of America supporting the "Zionist" regime of Israel. He would be another head of state who does not hate America for its freedoms but hates the United States involvement in the Middle East. If we stopped meddling in the affairs of Middle Eastern nations, I speculate that they wouldn't be so agitated.


    Yes, that would be the example. How are you determining who is anointed and who isn't? There is a candidate for president who has been married 3 times and divorced twice, his children will not endorse him for president because he humiliated their mother, he cross-dresses and had Donald Trump rub his face in his/her chest, he is against abortion but in favor of laws for women to abort, he is in favor of pro-sodomite legislation and has roomed with them in between wives. Right now, the corporate land line phone polls show this man to be in the lead. If Americans, who 78% of which say they are Christians, continue to support this man or stay out of the process because God will choose who He will choose, then "God's anointed" will be this man?
     
  14. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Again just because someone is raised up doesn't mean it's God's will for him/her to push the button.

    Again I can see how some of my brothers can see that voting against God's annointed is active rebellion against God.

    I don't think there is one. But there are plenty of statements that he has made that say America should be destroyed. I will refer to your statement does it matter whether it's with nukes or spitwads? By the way without a shot means without any type of military action including your laced spit wads right?

    Come on now. You really believe that. You really think that if we were to say alright Israel you are own your own that we would be better off as a nation?

    I don't determine that. God does. Whomever He choses to be the leaders are His annointed. If you speak against them you are speaking against God because He raised them up. That's why I think we must be careful of what we say of the leaders that are put in charge over us. I think we would all be better off if we didn't say anything about them unless we are addressing sin.

    I know that's a fine line.

    And if you have a problem with that should Rudy be elected you would need to take that up with the One Who placed him in power, not those that didn't get involved.
     
  15. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
     
  16. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611 New Member

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    Great, who is God's anointed so I don't rebel against God?



    Ummm yes. What does that dinky patch of desert in the Middle East have to do with the interests of the United States of America?


    Well that works for me and that will be quite easy to do with the former mayor of New York.


    I think just maybe, that will mean He gave us the leader we deserved.
     
  17. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Well there are a lot of them in the United States.

    Well that may very well be true, but I don't think the US will ever abandon Israel until God is ready to bring judgment on the country and by that time we will be outta here anyway :)

    I certainly don't know the mind of God entirely, but I see no evidence of that in Scripture. God places leaders that are going to further His plan for the nations ultimately resulting in the judgment of His adulterous wife Israel.

    Everything that has happened and is happening is traveling to that end in regard to the Gentile nations. That really is their only purpose being in power at this time. When Israel repents they will be established back at the head of the nations and Gentile power will no longer be necessary.

    Christ will squash Gentile power and all blessings will flow out from Him through Israel as they have been intended.

    But you probably already knew that.
     
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