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ROSES, a reasonable baptist position?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by quantumfaith, Nov 7, 2010.

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  1. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Ah yes, the freedom between redemption and not with redemption being out of the question. The mystical Henry Ford Model T "choice" theology consisting only of one thing.
     
    #61 webdog, Nov 8, 2010
  2. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Heh, heh, heh.

    So, if it's contrary to tulip, could you agree with ROSES? Where would you part company with it?
     
    #62 Tom Butler, Nov 8, 2010
  3. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    quantumfaith
    There is so much there to deal with I just wanted to lift one part and ask a question here is what is stated;
    Sovereign Election -- In contrast to the double predestinarianism of unconditional election,
    God sovereignly elects those whom He foreknows will respond to Him.

    How does He foreknow? Does He look down through history?
     
    #63 freeatlast, Nov 8, 2010
  4. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    It is not the position of the vast majority of the SBC. Read "Young Restless and Reformed" by Collin Hansen and you will learn that 44% of SBC pastors are Calvinistic.

    Southern Seminary, the SBC flagship Seminary, and often times the largest seminary in the world is thoroughly Calvinistic.

    And you are right that this view assumes that unregenerate man has innate goodness in him. This is dangerously close to Pelagianism it seems to me.

    And I'll tell you something else. Some of these guys will not yield no matter how much the Word of God says that unregenerate man has NO goodness in him whatsoever.

    They think because unregenerate man care for their own, something that wolves, crocodiles and hyenas do, that this means there is good in sinful man.

    See the thread, "What can the unregenerate man do" and you will see that no amount of logic and Scripture will convince them otherwise.
     
    #64 Luke2427, Nov 8, 2010
  5. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    It is not the position of the vast majority of the SBC. Read "Young Restless and Reformed" by Collin Hansen and you will learn that 44% of SBC pastors are Calvinistic.

    Southern Seminary, the SBC flagship Seminary, and often times the largest seminary in the world is thoroughly Calvinistic.

    I am Southern Baptist and I am thoroughly reformed.
     
    #65 Luke2427, Nov 8, 2010
  6. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Yea, and as I much as I appreciate the maturity of a lot of your posts, you need to admit that your only biblical argument for this idea that man is has plenty of innate goodness are passages that say that these unregenerate men care for their own and those who care for them just like roaches and rats do.

    You need to admit that you have no REAL biblical argument for this idea that man without God is good.
     
    #66 Luke2427, Nov 8, 2010
  7. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    This is true in every denomination.
     
    #67 Luke2427, Nov 8, 2010
  8. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Thank you for the info and most especially for your spirit. In my estimation, only my human and fallible estimation, the issues surrounding "theological debates" such as "C (or more rightly B) vs. A will never be resolved, because in fact, I am not sure we "can" resolve it. The best we can hope for in the debate, is to attempt to get to the mature point (intellectually and spiritually) or realizing our limitations and truly love and respect one another and "make every effort" to live our faith and impact our culture.
     
    #68 quantumfaith, Nov 8, 2010
  9. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    At this time Luke, respectfully, I will not admit such. Although I may not be as biblically aware and eloquent as yourself, at this time I will not admit such. I do remain convinced that the "will" of man is involved in the equation of salvation. So, again, I say, you have planted your foundation in the soil of reformed theology, however, the only "reformed" label that I will accept for myself is that I worship as a protestant rather than a catholic.
     
    #69 quantumfaith, Nov 8, 2010
  10. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Here is the graph spoke of in an earlier post. Statistics do not in and of themselves "lie", one can question the manner in which the statistics were obtained and the way in which survey questions were posed, but mathematics is the most "naturally unbiased" of the sciences. I do disagree with you here, in that I do think most churches (by population) do not ascribe to reformational theology. I will also submit, that most of the lay membership have little to no idea of the distinctions.

    http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=23993
     
    #70 quantumfaith, Nov 8, 2010
  11. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    I personally see not contradiction with God's being omniscient while allowing man the freedom of responding to him. I see no need for God to "look through the corridors of time", being omniscient and omnipresent is totally enough and complete. If you have any interest in the "issue of time", Dr. William Lane Craig has an excellent work "Time and Eternity: Exploring God's Relationship to Time" A very interesting and for me very intellectually challenging book.

    I might add, Dr. Craig is a well known proponent of Molinism, again something I find interesting, but as of yet I dont have my head around all the details.
     
    #71 quantumfaith, Nov 8, 2010
  12. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    The "o" needs further clarification, and I don't like the "s".
     
    #72 webdog, Nov 8, 2010
  13. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Luke, again I disagree with you that Southern is the flagship seminary. On what basis or criteria do you make that point? For me, NOBTS or Southwestern is the flagship seminary(ies). I have been Southern Baptist for 47 years, and I am thoroughly not Calvinistic. Just saying. :)
     
    #73 quantumfaith, Nov 8, 2010
  14. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I am also fully convinced that the will of man is involved in the equation. So are most Calvinists.

    But the Bible teaches that the will of man is opposed to God until that will is changed by the grace of God.

    God never forces anyone to get saved nor does he lock heaven's door to any man.

    Men do what they want to do.

    God changes the "want to" of those who get saved. He makes them willing by his grace.

    Thanks for responding to me, BTW.

    God bless!
     
    #74 Luke2427, Nov 8, 2010
  15. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Hallelujah, brother we agree. Mercy, peace and love in abundance.
     
    #75 quantumfaith, Nov 8, 2010
  16. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Southern Seminary is often the largest seminary on planet earth. She is currently graduating more SBC missionaries (which REALLY undermines the idea that Calvinists are not missions minded) and pastors than any other SBC seminary.

    If this does not qualify as flagship for seminaries- well, I don't know what does.
     
    #76 Luke2427, Nov 8, 2010
  17. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I'm sure we agree about most things, really. I just wish I could get you to see that Calvinism is biblical and God glorifying. I was a Free Will Baptist for better than a decade, educated in a Free Will Baptist college and thought that Calvinism impugned the character of God and was a man made system just like you think. But I learned not too long ago that I REALLY didn't understand Calvinism. When I understood it- I realized it was true.

    But if I never convince you, I'm sure we both believe the Bible is the Word of God and that Jesus is the sinless son of God who was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, died upon the cross for our sins, rose victoriously the third day and is coming again in power and great glory.

    This ought to be enough to hold us together!:jesus:
     
    #77 Luke2427, Nov 8, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2010
  18. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    #78 Luke2427, Nov 8, 2010
  19. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    God Bless you brother, I hope I have never indicated that I think "calvinism" or those who hold to that is "unbiblical" or "non-glorifying" of God. I simply see things "differently". Perhaps, you are correct, we see more "eye to eye" than we think we do.

    1. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the God of all creation
    2. Man is sinful and corrupt
    3. God desires to redeem man unto himself
    4. There is one mediator, Jesus the Christ.
    5. He was born of a virgin
    6. He was crucified and died and rose again
    7. He will come again
    8. The redeemed of the Lord will one day be in His presence for all eternity.
     
    #79 quantumfaith, Nov 8, 2010
  20. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Absolutely! I agree one hundred percent. That ought to be enough to bind us together.
     
    #80 Luke2427, Nov 8, 2010
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