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Sabbath "Remains" for the People of God Heb 4

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jul 10, 2005.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The Sabbath commandment says "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy" --

    The only way to keep a day Holy is to be Holy - sanctified - in fellowship with Christ.

    Satan can not keep Sabbath Holy EVEN if he chooses to take a nap that day.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    1) While the principle of a "positive example of rest" applies both to us, as to David; still, this "rest" was not physical rest on a day. In the OT, the weekly sabbath was not called this type of "rest". But here in Hebrews, it is reveled as such. That is the difference between us and David. David may have striven for that rest while keeping the literal sabbath at the same time, but now in the NT it is revealed that the literal sabbath was in fact pointing to the true spiritual rest. Just like the sacrifices were pointing to repentance and remission of sins, even though a person could truly repent and be forgiven then. A person could be both circumcized physically, and "circumcized in the heart" back then. That doesn't mean both continue for us today. They could have both in the OT, but the spiritual side of it was not as clearly revealed, because the focus in the OT was the letter of the Law.

    2) OK, so a person comitting other sins and resting on the sabbath is not keeping it holy. They are "denied" access to this "rest", even though they physically "rest"! (First of all, how many of us are sinless, to begin with?). But then this proves that both "rest" and "keep holy" is not about physically resting on a day! And then; shouldn't we be holy every day? This is what we mean, by how the commandment is "magnified" in the NT.
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Was God's message to David in Psalms 95 - that the Sabbath-keeping SAints of David's day had to be "Sinless" to benefit from the Sabbath?

    No. To BE Holy after the fall means to be IN Christ - justified - sanctified - set apart in fellowship with God in the MAtt 7 sense that Christ defines.

    That was true for the saints in David's day as Paul claims they are joined by the saints of Heb 3 and 4 -- in heeding that SAME Psalms 95 message.

    IF That message was a "Sabbath-abolishing message" as you claim - then David's generation would already have ceased to honor Christ the Creator's own holy day.

    It is instructive that nothing of the kind is supportable from scripture.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    David's generation was before Christ. Yes, they "looked forward" to Him, but it was not until His sacrifice that the covenants changed and the spirit of the Law emphasized to those "sanctified" in Him.
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. But Paul does not make that argument of a CHANGE since David's day a CHANGE since the message of Psalms 95 in the text of Heb 3 and 4.

    INSTEAD He argues that werare to JOIN WITH the Sabbath-keeping people of David's day and LIKE THEM take heed to the SAME Psalms 95 message!!

    HE points out that it remains for "SOME" to enter into that promised rest. Showing that it is NOT ALL saints in Paul's day that have the problem pointed out - but SOME still do.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Paul argues that WE join with THEM (the Sabbath-keeping saints of David's day) in paying attention to this SAME Psalms 95 message!

    A. Paul argues that “fear” be a motivator when looking at the “Failing example” of Heb 3. Paul is recommending “fear” based on taking the argument of God in Psalms 95 “seriously” as IT points to the FAILING case of Moses’ generation.
    B. Paul says “while a promise remains” -- What “promise remains”?? It is shown in chapter 3 to be the Psalms 95 promise regarding “Today”. That promise given to David and “his generation” still remains.
    C. We observe here that we have the same gospel the "good news" preached to us JUST AS they (OT Hebrews at Sinai) ALSO. The ONE Gospel (Gal 1:6) which was even
    "preached to Abraham" (Gal 3:7-8) - showing ONE solution (salvation through Christ) for the ONE problem (fallen humanity lost in sin),

    1Cor 10:2-4 "ALL were Baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea and all drank from the same SPIRITUAL ROCK which followed them and that was CHRIST"
    Next Paul returns again to the Psalms 95 message of David’s generation and the “promise that remains” for us even today – in that OT message.

    In chapter 3 Paul clearly established that the generation of Moses’ day did NOT enter “because of unbelief”. By contrast he notes the Faith, belief, endurance, perseverance in obedience that is called for in Psalms 95 – given to David and his generation. And so again in vs 3 – he is quoting Psalms 95 – the argument that “remains” the promise that “remains” even for us today.
    In vs 3 we HAVE ENTERED his rest - because when we BELIEVE (Rom 10:9) we are born again - transformed, accepted into fellowship with God (1John 1:1-5). Having been returned in some degree to that perfect fellowship which Adam had before the fall – not yet fully RESTORED fellowship with God as in literally seeing and walking with God the way Adam did - but still worshipping in love and submitting to God's Word.

    So also did the giants of faith in (Heb 11) “believe”. These are like David and the saints of his day who chose to “Believe” and to “persevere faithful firm until the end”- born again saints of the OT who "believe and it was accounted unto them for righteousness". By faith - by "belief" these saints ENTERED just as we HAVE ENTERED His rest.

    But of course Hebrews is contrasting this Psalms 95 message given in David’s time – in the OT – to the OT saints that uses the “Failing example” of those in Moses’ generation who died in the wilderness. Who failed “because of unbelief” see chapter 3

    Heb 3:19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief. .


    This point of failure due to unbelief also applies to those Jews who reject the Messiah – and the Psalms 95 “promise that remains” is given to the Sabbath keeping saints of David and his generation Saints already IN the land of Canaan.

    Here again in Rom 11 we saw Paul arguing “in favor of fear” and pointing to the “negative examples” of those who fail to persevere, to believe to “continue in His kindness”. Paul argues that we are in the SAME system of success vs failure. “IF He did not SPARE THEM – neither will He spare you EITHER”. This is the basis/justification of his argument that we should “not be conceited but FEAR”.

    But aside from these examples of failure - we do have the great examples of success of those that were "pleasing to God" and who found "Acceptance with God" mentioned in Heb 11. </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  7. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    The principle of "unbelief keeps one from entering His rest" doesn't change, so of course, Hebrews is not going to speak of any "change". That doesn't mean that all the details of worship and literal vs. spiritual applications of some things are the same for us as for them. They were still under the Old Covenant system.
     
  8. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    In Dt. 5:15, the reason for observing the weekly Sabbath is to affirm what was absolutely fundamental for God's people, namely, that Yahweh had liberated them from Pharoah (satan) and Egypt (sin). On every Sabbath, the Lord's people are to remember that their God is a liberator:

    "Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there with a strong hand and an outstretched arm. That is why the Lord your God has commanded you to keep the Sabbath day" - (Holman Christian Standard Bible).


    That is one reason there is still "a keeping of a Sabbath to the people of God" (Heb. 4:9) ----- Jesus saved His people out of the land of Egypt (sin) (Jude 5).
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The point is that the same Psalms 95 argument made to David - and yes to the "Sabbath keeping saints of David's day" is given to us today and we are to join with them in listening to that warning not to give up - but rather to persevere "firm until the end".

    Paul argues that EVEN today (apparently just as in David's day) "IT REMAINS for SOME" to enter into that rest.

    No part of his argument is an argument AGAINST the actual rest rejected by those in the dessert NOR an argument AGAINST Christ the Creator's Holy Day when the message was given to David AND not even today when it is given again to us!

    Rather the argument relies upon an affirmation that the rest of Canaan and the rest of the Sabbath ARE positive and valid examples of rest!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    doesn't the weekly Sabbath foreshadow the FUTURE millennial Sabbath Age --- the future Messianic redemption and rest --- at Christ's return, and therefore, the weekly Sabbath is STILL the Christians' reminder of this future 1000 year rest.


    The delight and joy that will mark the end of days is made available here and now by the Sabbath.
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    There may be an argument for that - but I don't see Paul making it in Heb 3 or 4.
     
  12. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Hebrews IS making that argument, showing us that THAT is the true "rest" we are looking forward to.
    In the OT, the Israalites were given both weekly and annual sabbaths that both commemorated past acts of God, and pointed forward to the whole plan of redemption (which are the antitypical counterparts to the past works of God, such as Creation, leading them out of bondage from Egypt, etc). However, the future plan of redemption (from basic salvation inMessiah, to the eternal kingdom) still remained somewhat cloudy and not completely revealed to them. That period of the letter of the Law was more focused on physical deeds.
    Now, we are clearly revealed the plan of redemption, and as we trust (rest) in Christ for salvation (freedom from sin) now and look forward to the kingdom directly, this becomes the focus rather than ceasing from work on days to "remind" us. Rather than living by simple physical "remembering" or "reminders"; we now begin to experience the true "rest" now, until eternity!
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    If you see Heb 3 or 4 talking about the future millennial time period -- then quote it.

    I am happy to deal with actual details IN the text.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    It's a "rest" that must be ENTERED, snd can be DENIED. It's not something we DO, it's something we GET (and on one sense, in in the future, in full) if we persevere in faith.
     
  15. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    This should help.........


    THE REST THAT REMAINS: "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them [the Jews]: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as He said, As I have sworn in My wrath, if they shall enter [they shall not enter] into My rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all His works. . . . There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into His rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from His" (Hebrews 4:1-10).

    The rest that is here spoken of is evidently the rest that remains for the people of God in the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. It is rest in the earth made new, which the ancient Jews did not obtain because of unbelief. That which they received in the land of Canaan was only a shadow of the real rest which God had promised them. The same gospel of the kingdom, which is preached to us, was first preached to them. But what has the seventh day to do with that eternal rest in the kingdom of God? We shall see.

    The Sabbath is the memorial of creation, as we have seen. But let it not be forgotten that the Sabbath was given at the time when "God saw all that He had made; and, behold, it was very good." So the Sabbath commemorates a perfect creation. It reminds us that the earth was not always in the condition in which we now see it. Then, since no word of God can fail, and every purpose will be carried out, just as surely as the Sabbath reminds us of a perfect creation completed for the dwelling-place of man, it assures us that the earth will be renewed and made fit for the dwelling-place of those who shall be made meet for the inheritance of the saints in light.

    "They shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols. But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens: God Himself that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else" (Isaiah 45:16-18).

    God made the earth and placed man upon it. When man was created, he was upright; therefore, God intended the earth to be inhabited by a race of perfect beings. To these beings He gave the Sabbath, that they might keep in mind their Creator and thus retain their perfection. That perfection was not merely physical perfection, but it was spiritual as well. Man, in perfection of character, was made in the image of God. So he was to observe the Sabbath as a reminder of the spiritual perfection that he had received from God and that could be preserved by Him alone. Now it is to that perfect condition that the Lord is going to restore the earth, and through the gospel He is preparing a perfect people to inhabit the restored earth. Although man has fallen and the earth has been defiled, the Sabbath still remains, a fragment of Eden, both as a reminder to man of what God prepared in the beginning and as a means of lifting him up to that high position, so that he may enjoy it when it is restored.

    The rest that remains, therefore, is the earth renewed and Eden restored. The works were finished from the foundation of the world. That is, as soon as the earth was created, it was man's rest. Man was given work to do, but it was not wearisome work. A strictly literal rendering of Genesis 2:15 would be, that God caused man to rest in the garden which He had planted. He gave man rest in the earth that was ready for his enjoyment. The proof of this is found in the words, "And God did rest the seventh day from all His works."

    Then the Sabbath was given to man as a sign that he was to rest to all eternity with the Lord. That is, he was to enjoy spiritual rest--perfect freedom from all sin.

    During the six days God has been speaking the words that brought the earth to its perfect condition. Then He rested. He ceased speaking, and His word, which liveth and abideth forever, continued to uphold that which was created. So God rested upon His word. He could rest from the work of creation in perfect confidence that His word would uphold the universe. So when we keep the Sabbath of the Lord, we simply take the rest that comes from settling down upon the promises of God.

    Thus it is that "we which have believed do enter into rest." And he that hath entered into rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from His. Before men fully accept the simple word of the Lord, everything is from self. The works of the flesh are only sin; and even though men profess to serve God and have earnest desires to do right, their own works to that end are failures. "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" Isaiah 64:6. But when we realize the power of the word of God and know that it is able to build up those who trust it, then we cease our own works and allow God to work in us, both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Then all our works are wrought in Him, and they are right. This is indeed rest. The rest that comes when we realize that salvation does not come from ourselves but from the word which made the heavens and the earth and which upholds them, is the rest which the Sabbath brings to us when it is kept as the Lord designs.

    Notice that we are to remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. It is holy, and so we are to keep it. We are not to make it holy, for that would be impossible; only God could do that. No act of ours can add to, or detract from, its holiness. Neither are we to make ourselves holy, so that we may keep it properly. That we could not do. But the same power that sanctified the Sabbath day will sanctify us. That power is the power that made the universe. It is creative power by which we are to be sanctified, for Christ is the Creator, and He is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption. God has given us the Sabbath--the memorial of His creative power--that we may know that He is the God that sanctifies us.

    This is the rest that Christ gives to all that come to Him. He says, "Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls" (Matthew 11:28, 29). We are to come and rest upon the word that upholds the universe. This is what the Sabbath means. It commemorates creation; but redemption is simply the power that created all things, working to restore them. So the Sabbath marks the highest gospel attainments.

    We have seen that the Sabbath was given in Eden, and that it is a part of that rest upon which God entered. When kept in spirit and in truth, it is a bit of Eden preserved for us through all the changes wrought by the curse. And as God made not the earth in vain, but formed it to be inhabited by the same class of people whom He first placed upon it, so it will yet be. Therefore, the Sabbath is not only a portion of the original Eden preserved for us, but it is also identical with that rest that will be enjoyed by the saints of God throughout eternity. Heaven does indeed begin upon earth for those who fully accept the Saviour, and who give themselves to Him without reserve. The Sabbath--a fragment of paradise--spans the chasm from Eden lost till Eden restored, and as it is the memorial of the first, it is the pledge of the second.

    Is not the Sabbath, then, indeed a delight? Can anyone who understands what it means regard it in any other light than a blessing? The man of God has given us a song for the Sabbath day, in which he shows how it is to be regarded, and what it is to do for us. "It is a good thing to give thanks unto the Lord, and to sing praises unto Thy name, O Most High: to show forth Thy lovingkindness in the morning, and Thy faithfulness every night, upon an instrument of ten strings, and upon the psaltery; upon the harp with a solemn sound. For Thou, Lord, hast made me glad through Thy work: I will triumph in the works of Thy hands" (Psalm 92:1-4). We are to be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. We are to be overcomers "through Him that loved us." So when we are beset with temptation we have only to think of the power of God--the power that made the worlds from nothing--and know that it will be put forth for our deliverance if we will but accept it. Nothing is too hard for the Lord, and there is nothing able to withstand Him. All the hosts of Satan have no power when engaged in a contest with the Lord. Christ has "spoiled principalities and powers" (Colossians 2:15). So when we rest ourselves on that power, the victory is already won. The things that God has made remind us of His power, and so we triumph in the works of His hands. This glorious victory is what the Sabbath is intended to bring to us.

    So as the Sabbath is the sign of a perfect creation, it is the seal of a new creature in Christ. It is therefore the seal of God, ministered by the Spirit of God. As it came from paradise and is a part of the rest of paradise, so it shows that those who keep it in spirit (not in form merely) are, through the mighty power of God, destined for a place in paradise. And thus it will come to pass that, in the ages to come, when Eden is restored, all flesh shall come together from Sabbath to Sabbath to worship God, whose love and power and kindness in Christ have brought them to share the glories of His presence. And as they assemble on those thrice-blessed Sabbath days, they will sing, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." But the redeemed host will not be alone in their praises. All the works of God praise Him even now, while groaning and waiting for the redemption; but then, when every trace of the curse will have been removed and the gospel has brought back the original creation, "Every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them," will in perfection unite as with one voice in saying, "Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever and ever" Revelation 5:12, 13.

    -E.J. Waggoner
     
  16. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Still; even though this creation was originally perfect, but it was spoiled by sin. So it's not just the patching up of this old creation, but an all NEW creation promised.
     
  17. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    So as the Sabbath is the sign of a perfect creation, it is the seal of a new creature in Christ. It is therefore the seal of God, ministered by the Spirit of God. As it came from paradise and is a part of the rest of paradise, so it shows that those who keep it in spirit (not in form merely) are, through the mighty power of God, destined for a place in paradise.
    __________________________________________________

    O foolish Galatians. Sabbatarianism is Judaism in gentile clothing.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    What a great Bible quote Jim!!

    Here is another one

    "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to WORSHIP" Isaiah 66.

    And here is another one every bit as good as simply "quoting Jim".

    "Sabbath was MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27.

    Of course I am sure that if Christ knew how awful it was to say such things (as you have pointed out above - Jim) he would have thought twice before making such a grand statement about MANKIND and His OWN Holy Day - eh?

    Paul in Heb 4 could certainly learn a thing or two from Jim. Paul actually says "There REMAINS therefore Sabbath REST for the People of God" Heb 4.

    What an awful thought - Eh Jim? "There REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the PEOPLE of GOD??". Surely if Paul had read that section of Jim's authorship above -- he too would have thought twice before making such a claim.

    And then there is JAMES claiming that we should "So live and act as those who ARE to be judged by the Law of Liberty" a law that is quoted from in James 2 showing that it is none-other than the Ten Commandments!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    Okey dokey. Here ya go. Take it up with Paul.

    Ga 3:1
    ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
    Ga 3:2
    This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    Ga 3:3
    Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
    Ga 3:4
    Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
    Ga 3:5
    He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    Ga 3:6
    ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
    Ga 3:7
    Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
    Ga 3:8
    And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
    Ga 3:9
    So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
    Ga 3:10
    For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    Ga 3:11
    But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
    Ga 3:12
    And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
    Ga 3:13
    Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
    Ga 3:14
    That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    Tell me Bob. Do you do ALL the Law or just the PARTS you like?

    Hmph. I thought so.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Far be it from me to have an opinion other than the clear and explicit Word of God when it comes to honoring HIS commands!

    The pre-cross Commandments of Christ the Creator were to be kept by Christ’s followers.

    John 14:15 ”If you love Me keep My commandments”

    These are the Words of Christ the Creator as He quotes from the 2nd commandment.

    But what exactly did these pre-cross words of Christ “mean” to His Jewish followers – the “primary audience” that exegesis would have us consider?

    Lets see if we can discover that by looking at some more statements found in God’s Word.

    Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”.

    Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”. No wonder Paul says --
    So lets see. The law will not change in even the minutest way, till heaven and earth pass. Anyone who breaks the law, and teaches others to do so, will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Thinking about committing sin is now just like actually committing the sin. Ah, the law has been magnified. Christ came and fulfilled the law, observing all of it’s commands, even in thought, not just action.

    Yes, lets let the scriptures speak for themselves.
    Christ quotes from the 3rd commandment for the statement above.

    Christ said that HIS commandment and the Father’s Commandment are one and the same
    Notice that John promotes this theme not only with his recording the pre-cross statements of Christ the hCreator – but also the post –cross teaching.
    Christ condemns those who would break the Commandments of God for the sake of man-made tradition –
    Christ’s followers continue to keep the Sabbath commandment after His command that they should “Love Me and Keep My Commandments” John 14:15 (quoting from the 3rd commandment in Exodus 20)
    Why do the Gospel writers take such care to teach us what Christ commanded them?

    Notice that John does not try to “divide God” as if God’s commandments are not Christ’s

    As for Law and Grace -- Pauls words in Romans 2:13-16 come to mind relative to "justification".

    Here the "New Covenant" promise of the "Law written on the heart" is clearly seen.

    Is it any wonder that Paul writes

    And James 2 tells us to live and act as those "Who are to be judged by God's Law of Liberty".

    God is not "calling for rebellion against His Law" as many Christians today "suppose".

    Nor is He "abolishing His law" so that only the lost are guilty of breaking it - but the saved can freely transgress and in fact are commanded not to regard it at all. Rather God declares that the name of God is profaned among the wicked by the breaking of His law among the saints. (in Romans 2)
     
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