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Saints removed

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by rlvaughn, Jan 16, 2020.

  1. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    While looking at word change statistics on Robert Slowley's website, I happened to notice that the NIV went from 69 uses of the word "saints" in 1984 to zero uses in 2011. I found that intriguing. I went on Bible Gateway and checked other versions (not all of them, though, but including Wycliffe, Geneva, KJV, ASV, RSV, NASB, CSB, LEB). Many common Bible versions, old & new, have 60 to 100 verses with the word saint or saints, while I found that the NIV and NLT have no instances. So it seems the NLT may be the only other newer Bible to go that direction. These two have several words, such as holy ones, holy people, God's people, and others.

    What do you think of this change, and why do you think it was made?

    Thanks.
     
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  2. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    I always translate ἁγίοις has "holy ones". It just made more sense to me since it was the plural of Άγιος (holy).

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
     
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  3. Rippon2

    Rippon2 Well-Known Member

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    I only checked for "holy people."

    NABRE : 84
    CEB : 32
    NRSV : 31
    CSB : 20
    LEB and NET : 19
    ISV : 17
    NIV : 12
     
  4. alexander284

    alexander284 Well-Known Member

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    I prefer using the term "saints."

    I think it's done because when people hear "saints," they immediately think of it in the sense that the Roman Catholic Church uses it.
     
  5. MartyF

    MartyF Well-Known Member

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    In common vernacular, Saint doesn’t mean the same thing as it use to. Through tv and other media the word generally has a primarily Catholic meaning. Most common people would think of Catholic saints when they read this in the Bible - not a more general notion used by some older translations.
     
  6. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    I notice that the NABRE almost makes the same decision as the NIV and NLT, retaining “saints” only in Matthew 27:52.
    Yes, I was thinking that possibly could be in the background of the reasoning for removing the words. The following quote from “A Word to the Reader” in the TNIV confirms that, I believe, while avoiding mentioning any particular church or denomination.
    There is a good bit of confusion about what Catholics actually believe about saints. Some people think they mean an extra-holy person, someone on a much higher level than the average or regular Christian. (When people are thinking that way, I don’t think “holy ones” solves the problem.) However, for Roman Catholics at least, “saints” basically are dead people, not living ones. According to one Catholic website, “In Catholic theology, the term ‘Saint’ is reserved for those individuals who have led a holy and exemplary life and have now entered Heaven.” The NABRE (a Catholic translation) rendering of Matthew 27:52 is consistent with that view. While people may be confused by the word itself, the widespread use of “saints” in English translations for all Christians contradicts the Roman Catholic view of saints. Oddly enough, the Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (a Catholic Bible) has “saint” or “saints” in 119 verses (including the Apocrypha).

    Notes
    • Saint and saints is not just used in older translations. For example LEB is © 2012 and CSB © 2017.
    • Some versions (CSB, for example) have retained “saints” in the New Testament, but not in the Old.
     
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  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Saints in Catholic theology would be those who so cooperated with the Graces of God that they actually arrived at a spiritual state meriting God to save them in this life, so went straight to heaven. Vast majority will end up in purgatory, in order to atone and pay for their sins!
     
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  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps, but also like that saints in the older versions referred to all of the saved as now Holy to God, not just a certain super saint group!
     
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