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Salvation by Works.....or Not?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 2, 2007.

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  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Do you have another question?:smilewinkgrin:

    Seriously, God alone can weigh all the motives and intents of the heart. When dealing with moral agents, agents that God has empowered as first causes of their moral intents, there is no right answer as to the reasons we chose or refuse certain influences.

    Take a pair of identical twin, raised in the same conditions and surroundings with the same moral input. One may chose to follow God and the other reject God and perish. Sure we can sometimes have a guess as to why one chooses a certain way, but that is what it amounts to, a guess.

    My only answer to your question, which may or may not satisfy the desires of either your or my intellect completely, is that ‘true fortitude of knowledge consists in not allowing the things we cannot understand to confuse the things we know with certainty.’ (Algernon Sydney I believe was the one that said something to that effect) We know for certain that God praises and blames man for intents, therefore we know that man is the first cause of his intents, and as such responsible for them. I will have to wait till we stand before Him to figure out all the whys. We can to a degree ascertain the nature of many choices, whether or not it was selfishness or benevolence driving the choice, but even then we have to allow God to make that final judgment as to all the motivation involved. Will not the God of the Universe do right?

    Even in my own life, I cannot answer why I chose to follow God. There were many reasons I am certain, some I was cognizant of and others were deeply embedded in my subconscious. Oh the easy response would be that I saw God’s great love for me and I chose to follow Him. That has a nice ring to it and is certainly true in a sense, but God also awakened me to the fact that my life might be over in a second, and I was not prepared to meet Him. The death of a close friend had a tremendous impact on the timing of turning my life over tot God. I know God used fear of facing Him without a pure heart as one motivation of great influence in my life. I also had the wonderful privilege of seeing Christ modeled in the lives of my godly parents and numerous other individuals that God saw fit to cross paths with me. The prayers of others I KNOW had an impact on my life. How God does that , or how prqayer affects the lives of others, I cannot answer, but I know that prayer changes things because God said it does!

    Oh God, help us to pray effectively to see souls won for your kingdom. Help me to live a righteous life before You with the strength You have promised and provided for us. Help us on this list to provoke one another to good works and to fervent intercession for others.
     
    #81 Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 2, 2007
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #1. No text says "you must be born again in order to repent".

    #2. No text says "you must first be born-again to accept the Gospel".

    #3. No text says that anyone can be "a new creation" without FIRST being "in Chris"... "For if anyone is IN Christ He is a new creation" 2Cor 5.

    Romans 10 makes it clear that the sequence starts with BELIEF and that this leads TO salvation and only those in that salvation condition of being "in Christ" are "new creations".

    Rom 10
    8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
    9 that [b]if you confess[/b] with your mouth Jesus as Lord,     and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, [b]you will be saved; [/b]
    10 for     with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and [b]with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvati
    on. [/b]
    11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES[/b] IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."


    In Rev 3 the LOST person is described as "alone on the inside without Christ" and Christ is said to be on the outside knocking at the heart's door "Behold I stand at the door an knock if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL then come in"
     
    #82 BobRyan, Sep 2, 2007
  3. Cutter

    Cutter New Member

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    Faith requires action, or as James put it, "Faith without works is dead."
    Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!



    When the Word is given and a man believes in that Word of God he will act on it. That's why it is totally and absolutely necessary for you to believe in the Gospel.
    I heard the gospel message that said if I died without Christ I would go to hell. I believed this to be true. It troubled me. I feared God because of my faith, I called on God because of my faith, I seek to live for God because of my faith.

    I was warned of God concerning the things not seen as yet, i.e. my eternal damnation in rejecting Him. I was so moved by fear that I accepted the only hope of my salvation, Jesus Christ.
     
    #83 Cutter, Sep 2, 2007
  4. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Cutter,

    You are right, faith requires action. So, is it a conditional?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
    #84 DeafPosttrib, Sep 3, 2007
  5. larryjf

    larryjf New Member

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    None of this really addresses the concept of regeneration.
    Rev 3 is not writtento a lost person but to a church.

    the text that i pointed to does say that you must be born again to see the Kingdom of Heaven. Do you think that one comes into the Kingdom of Heaven without first seeing it?
     
    #85 larryjf, Sep 3, 2007
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Rev 3 addresses the salvation issue by showing two states

    1. The sinner alone with Christ on the outside knocking and the sinner needing to make the choice to open the door.

    2. The sinner with Christ on the inside - in fellowship with Christ.

    Those who propose that "the saved condition" is the former state - have seriously under estimated the Gospel. Yet these are the same people that claim that the Ezek 18 condition where God declares you righteous and even stated "you shall live" -- is the LOST state?

    This is truly an "all for OSAS" approach to the Bible - it is not a faithful reading of the text and accepting what it says.

    I say "again" -

    #1. No text says "you must be born again in order to repent".

    #2. No text says "you must first be born-again to accept the Gospel".

    #3. No text says that anyone can be "a new creation" without FIRST being "in Christ"... "For if anyone is IN Christ He is a new creation" 2Cor 5.

    Romans 10 makes it clear that the sequence starts with BELIEF and that this leads TO salvation and only those in that salvation condition of being "in Christ" are "new creations".

    Rom 10
    8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
    9 that [b]if you confess[/b] with your mouth Jesus as Lord,     and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, [b]you will be saved; [/b]
    10 for     with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and [b]with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvati
    on. [/b]
    11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES[/b] IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."


    In Rev 3 the LOST person is described as "alone on the inside without Christ" and Christ is said to be on the outside knocking at the heart's door "Behold I stand at the door an knock if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL then come in"


    If you feel better about saying "the lost person INSIDE the church of Laodicea" in Rev 3 - then fine. Either way the point remains.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #86 BobRyan, Sep 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 3, 2007
  7. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Salvation by works......or not?

    I believe in a travail/travel from nature to grace. In Luke 15, the "Prodical Son" had to realize that he was lost in the "pig pen", or he wouldn't have thought of the need to go back to Father's house. We were ALL in the "pig pen" when we were sinners, but it took our thoughts and belief on Him to get us out of it. God will save us, but we have to call on Him when we were dead in sins. We were not physically dead, but were spiritually dead. If we were physically dead, we would all go to the Lake of Fire on the Last day. But, because He raised us from a dead state(dead state of sin), He raised us into a lively hope in Christ Jesus! Praise His high and holy name!! It wasn't by our works we were saved, but by our trust/faith/belief in Him, and what He could do for us.
     
    #87 convicted1, Sep 4, 2007
  8. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: And everyone that I have read on the list can give that a hearty Amen. No one has ever refuted this point.
     
    #88 Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 4, 2007
  9. Dan V.

    Dan V. New Member

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    This is not an accurate example of salvation. It is salvation (ultimately) by willpower. Since it's up to man, then man is the one saving himself.

    It also is a low view of grace - something merely offered. Like the teachings from Rome.

    Respectfully,

    Dan V.
    Charlotte PRC
     
    #89 Dan V., Sep 4, 2007
  10. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    Salvation is offered by Christ to all. Not all accept it.

    The lifering is a perfect illustration.

    I am sorry you disagree.
     
    #90 standingfirminChrist, Sep 4, 2007
  11. Dan V.

    Dan V. New Member

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    It's true that all men have a choice. Not all men have the ability. Unregenerate men have none.

    Dan V.
     
    #91 Dan V., Sep 5, 2007
  12. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    Don't try to hijack the thread with that 'Total Inability' line. That has already been proven to be false.

    John the Baptist proved it when He preached to Herod and Herodias to repent, yet they did not. It makes no sense that God should tell John to go preach repentance if Herod had no ability on his own to repent. That is one instance that blows the 'Total Inability' junk out of the water.

    All men everywhere are called to repentance. Not all heed the call. But it is not because they cannot, it is because they choose not to.

    Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. (Acts 26:28)

    Agrippa chose to refuse the gift of eternal life. His choice. It was offered.

    And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee. (Acts 24:25)

    Felix spoke with Paul one on one. Felix chose to refuse the gift of eternal life. His choice. It was offerend.

    No, the "T" in TULIP is faulty. Man is not totally unable to do a thing in his unregenerate state. Many in the Bible prove that.
     
    #92 standingfirminChrist, Sep 5, 2007
  13. Dan V.

    Dan V. New Member

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    #93 Dan V., Sep 5, 2007
  14. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    Apparently you do not understand the depth of the love of God.

    The Word of God tells us His Son died for ALL MEN. He is not willing that any should perish, but that ALL men come to repentance.

    He said He would draw ALL men unto Him, not some as the Total Inability teaches
     
    #94 standingfirminChrist, Sep 5, 2007
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2007
  15. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: This makes no sense the way you have written it. Are you saying that unregenerate men have no ability to make a choice? If so, then how can your first statement be true, in that “all men have a choice?” The only conclusion one can logically draw from what you have said is that the unregenerate (men) are not men. That is hardly logical. Are you sure about this?
     
    #95 Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 5, 2007
  16. Dan V.

    Dan V. New Member

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    You have not employed this basic hermaneutic - comparing scripture with scripture. You did not comment on Rom, 8:7... because you can't. It's impossible. Therefore you only dipslay a regard to some scriptures. Here are a few other passages:

    Jer. 17:9..."The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?..."

    Also, our Lord Himself stated that a bad tree can not bear good fruit - like repenting. It's impossible.

    The scriptures are clear that though God is good to all, He loves some in a saving manner.

    Rom 9:13 ..'As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated..."

    The Egyptians did not even get the gospel presented to them in types and shadows, as He did for Israel. This is obvious.

    Also our Lord's atonement is effectual to His elect only:

    Matthew 1:21 .."And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins...."

    ....not all men as you asserted.

    The scriptures you quoted (about God not being willing that any should perish) refer to all types of men...Jew and gentile. This is something which took some time for even the apostles to understand, though it was mentioned numerous times in the OT.

    Again... compare scripture with scripture. You have yet to do this. Or ask Easu, Judas, and Pharoah, with whom God soveriegnly gave over to their debased minds (Rom. 1)!

    If you think the grounds for which he saved you is based on your choice, then you don't fully understand the love of God.

    Sincerely,

    Dan V.
     
    #96 Dan V., Sep 5, 2007
  17. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: I like for the most part your posts to Dan V.:thumbs:

    I do have a couple of questions though. Can God hold man accountable for something He has already paid for on the cross? Am I mistaken in thinking that you hold to a literal payment theory, in that Christ literally paid for sins on the cross?

    If Christ died for all on the cross as I believe you would say, and He literally paid the sin debt of every individual, are you not suggesting that every man and women in hell have really have had their sins paid for? Does this not make the payment made less than effective to secure its ends? Would that not indicate a lot of suffering was needless, seeing that it in the end made no difference to those in hell that you insinuate had their sins paid for? Would not the economy of God in the suffering and death of Jesus be seen as wasteful and ineffective, having paid fro sins that were never actually remitted?
     
    #97 Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 5, 2007
  18. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    That verse that says God wants all to come to repentance, says ALL, not SOME. You have to do some powerful twisting of Scripture to leave some out.
     
    #98 standingfirminChrist, Sep 5, 2007
  19. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: That is simply unjustifiable conjecture. There is not one place in Scripture that states or insinuates any such thing.



    HP: If things are as you say they are, God is the author of their debased minds, for they were born into this world debased, never having anything to do with the way they were. You might as well blame men or women for the color of the hair they were born with or the color of their skin or eyes as to call men debased that were debased from birth. Debase means nothing other to you that a necessitated condition from birth. God has a differnt idea concerning it. He sees it as selfishness, wickedness, rebellion, witchcraft, etc. All of these reguire a choice to be made in opposition to love and benevolence.



    HP: There is not a single soul that I have read in the thousands of posts I have witnessed, that even hinted at the idea that the grounds of ones salvation is their choice. You are exhibiting a void of understanding between the grounds and conditions involved in salvation, and laying a false charge at the feet of SFIC.
     
    #99 Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 5, 2007
  20. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    HP,

    Have you noticed Dan V has only posted 4 times on the BB? all in this thread? and all attacking me?

    He is here with an agenda. That is quite obvious.
     
    #100 standingfirminChrist, Sep 5, 2007
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