Salvation & grape juice

In answer to a question about the bishop and deacons commands...

http://www.bethanybaptist.org.au/not_drink.htm

 

Yeah, I hear you. I've only known one preacher who was as fired up about alcohol as HBSM & DHK, and he had a history of alcoholism in his family, so he probably could only see it as black-and-white. Either you drink to excess and destroy the lives of your family, or you don't touch it at all. In fact, most people who seem to have control issues (as in, they want to control the behavior of others, and overly pride themselves on self-control) seem to come from families of alcoholics. I read somewhere that there's a corellation, but I don't recall the details.

The funny thing about that preacher is that he was incredibly ignorant, theology-wise, for a pastor with a doctorate in theology. He had no clue about the reformation and the theological issues surrounding it. He was a one-trick pastor of the Rick Warren variety. Same sermon every week, different words.

 

If you mean Genesis 19, as far as I know (I'm no Hebrew scholar) it doesn't say how much wine Lot drank. For example, verses 31-33:

31 Now the firstborn said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man on the earth to come in to us as is the custom of all the earth.
32 "Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve the lineage of our father."
33 So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.​

The daughters don't say, "Come, let us make our father have one drink of wine."

 

Man, now that had to be some really good stuff, if one swallow (equal to one drink, I would assume) made him, or anyone else for that matter, "drunk"!

And to think, I thought the old (now banned) cough syrup 'Terpin Hydrate with Codeine', colloquially known as "GI Gin" with a 50% alcohol content and a good shot of codeine added, was strong! :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

Best statement I've seen yet, on this thread, upon rereading it all carefully.

Ed

 

Probably at least a fifth. :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

Well, that makes two of us so far, in this thread. :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

FTR, honey, once the bees have 'cured' it, never ferments unless additional moisture is added, so something could theoretically be preserved for an indefinite amount of time in honey, if 'sealed'.

I know this as a former beekeeper and honey harvester, who had to give it up, due to increasing allergic reactions to the stings that one will invariably get from the 'pets', especially if one's own body chemistry is annoying to them, as mine was. Even showering just before working them was not enough to counteract the small amount of ammonia my own body produces, and that is a major factor in stings.

Ed

 

I believe Martin Luther said he would use German beer for the same. Or at least I've seen that written. I don't speak or read German so cannot attest to the complete truthfulness of this, however.

Ed

 

That would be interesting. I know Martin Luther had no way of knowing this, but the low alcoholic content of beer would not kill off all the yeast. If I recall correctly, the yeast dies when the concentration of alcohol reaches about 10%, which is normal for wine but not for beer. I'm not sure how beer is made, so I don't know how they stop the fermentation process at the lower alcohol content. There are several ways to do it - but I don't know which one is used.

 

The fact is that if you drink too much water it will kill you also.

 

The facts are that "a little wine" is just that.

The little wine is a mixture somewhat like syrup that DID contain some alcohol due to the fermentation of that syrup, much like Nyquil.

It is proven that only a small amount of alcohol need be ingested to cause a thinning of the blood to then make the heart beat faster to allow the blood to flow faster in the body. That will allow the medicines contained in the admixture to effect the body faster.

What bothers me is at our men's banquet for Father's Day, the chocolate icing on the desert cake contained chocolate liquor in it, now that is blasphemous!

I hadn't tasted alcohol like that since I got saved over 14 years ago. I was surprised no one else noticed, but it was very onvious and what I had always thought tasted "bad" actually had a deceptive "appeal".

From some one that alcohol had a rather large part in my going astray, that scares me. But I do know that the Lord will continue to sustain me and the temptation immediately left me the split-second I realized it.:jesus:

 

HBSMN.
This is your quote all the way back on page one.
First you cannot prove that Lot got drunk from just one drink. No matter how you dissect that passage it isn't there. Please give up on that kind of eisigesis. You are standing on sinking sand. Your premise is faulty. Both from the Word of God, from experience, and from history, we all know that one drink cannot make a person drunk. You just look foolish asserting this point. It is wrong on all three counts.

Second. Salvation does not hinge on the drinkiing of alcohol. It never did. We do not believe in a works salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith and by faith alone. It has nothing to do with the consumption of alcohol, just like it has nothing to do with smoking cigarettes. As one man said concerning smoking--It may not send you to hell; it will just make you smell like you came from there. Alcoholic beverages cannot send a person to hell. The believers at Corinth came to the Lord's Table drunk. Paul rebuked them for it, but never suggested that they were unsaved.

I do believe in abstinence. I do believe that driniking is wrong. But it has nothing to do with salvation, and the reasons given must be disconnected from salvation. Show from the Bible why drinking alcoholic beverages is wrong. Give sound Biblical principles. To say that it is connnected with salvation is foolishness.
Again, there is nothing in the context that shows that Lot had one drink. In fact the daughters of Lot went out of their way to make sure that he had enough wine to "make" him drunk. That certainly was more than one drink. Furthermore he was declared a just and righteous man by Peter. When did that righteousness come. Ater he repented from his drunkenness? No! Long before that. Abraham pleaded with God that if there were ten righteous people in the city of Sodom--would he destroy the city of Sodom for ten righteous people. God would not destroy the city for ten righteous people. But there were not ten righteous people. There were less than that. Instead, two angels came into the city and took the righteous people out of the city (Lot and his family) and then destroyed the city. Lot was declared righteous before the city was destroyed, before he got drunk.

 

I respectfully disagree. I know many who have gotten drunk off of their first beer. Alcohol travels through the bloodstram and attacks brain cells... yes, even one glass.

The Word of God does not say they gave Lot drinks that night, but drink. If Lot was not accustomed to alcohol, one drink would be all it took for him to lose self control.

He may have drank more than one drink, but self control was lost after the one drink. He was no longer temperate, as evidenced by the repeated offense the next night.

Paul did not have to tell them that it would send them to hell. He had already done that in Chapter 6 of the same Epistle when he stated:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

The fact remains, drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of God,... so ultimately, the alcohol will send a person to hell.

 

If nobody noticed doesn't that tell you something?

Teh funny thing is that my parents were grape growers for several years. The winery would give us bottles of wine and it would sit in our home sometimes for over a year. My dad would pull it out if someone came over and he knew they liked wine. We did not care much for wine. I do not of any students whose parents were grape growers who ever got drunk. It was almost always the city kids who were curious. We did not need to be curious because it was there in front of us. Sometimes a friend would come over and point out that the wine was out in the open and ask if he could taste it. I never allowed any friend to even taste it. The reason why is because they would look at it much differently than I did. Often they wouild look at it as if they were eager to drink it. I was not. In fact I never really cared for it. Not one in my family has ever been drunk or even close to being drunk. We have seen what happens to drunks.

 

A person who drinks a glass of wine is not the same thing as a drunkard. As DHK said, you don't get drunk from a single glass of wine. Try it for yourself and you'll find out.

Drunkenness is definitely labelled as sinful in the Bible. Being a drunkard means you are continually getting drunk.

 

The wine that the daughters gave to Lot certainly must have been strong. They 'slipped him a mickey... if you will'.

The Word records that they 'made' him to drink. They connived to deceive Lot with that which Solomon said deceives... wine.

The instance of just Lot being given the wine cannot be given as a sure view that even if one who calls himself a Christian drinks moderately, it will not cause him to miss heaven.

Lot drank the wine unknowingly. He did not call for wine and drink it. He was deceived into drinking it.

 

You can also get "drunk" on water. No, it's not the same chemical action as getting drunk on alcohol, but it's the same result. If you dilute your electrolytes enough, you impair your brain's ability to work properly. You will get confused and have slurred speech - the same symptoms as drunkenness. And if you keep diluting your electrolytes with more water after that, you'll die.

I don't know anyone who deliberately gets drunk on water, but that's the sin - deliberately getting drunk on something, no matter what the substance may be (alcohol, drugs, whatever).