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Salvation In the Millennial Kingdom?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Mar 19, 2006.

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  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Confessions of English Baptist in Holland

    Throughout history Baptist have generally believed that the return of Jesus Christ will be followed immediately by a resurrection of all the dead, both the ‘redeemed’ and the ‘lost’, and a general judgment. This conclusion is based on information presented in Baptist Confessions of Faith by William L. Lumpkin. [Only one Confession, that of the Baptist Bible Union of 1923, presents a view other than a general resurrection and judgment.] Not all of the confessions in the book included statements about the Second Coming. Those that do are identified and the pertinent statements are presented in the following paragraphs.

    Confessions of English Baptist in Holland

    A number of English Baptists fled to Holland to escape persecution in England. The following Confessions [3 - 6] are from some of these groups.

    A True Confession by the English Baptists in Amsterdam, Holland [1596]

    Article 16 [page 87].

    “That this Kingdom shall be then fully perfected when He shall the second time come in glory with His mighty Angels unto judgment, to abolish all rule, authority and power, to put all His enemies under His feet, to separate and free His chosen from them forever, to punish the wicked with everlasting perdition from His presence, to gather, join, and carry the godly with Himself into endless glory, and then to deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father, so that the glory of the Father may be full and perfect in the Son, the glory of the Son in all His members, and God be all in all.”

    Short Confession of Faith in XX Articles by John Smyth, 1609

    Article 19 [page 101].

    “That the dead [the living being instantly changed] will rise again with the same bodies; not the substance but the qualities being changed.”

    Article 20 [page 101].

    “That after the resurrection, all will be born to the tribunal of Christ, the judge, to be judged according to their works; the pious, after sentence of absolution, will enjoy eternal life with Christ in heaven; the wicked, condemned, will be punished with eternal torments in hell with the devil and his angels.”

    A Short Confession of Faith by the English Baptists, of the Helwys party, in Holland [1610]

    Article 38 [page 112].

    “Lastly we believe and teach the resurrection of the dead, both the just and the unjust, as Paul [1 Corinthians 15] soundly teacheth and withesseth: The soul shall be united to the body, every one shall be presented before the judgment seat of Christ Jesus, to receive in his own body wages according to his own works. And the righteous, whosoever hath lived holily, and through faith hath brought forth the works of love and mercy, shall enter into everlasting life with Christ Jesus, the Bridegroom of the Christian host. But the unsanctified, which have not known God, and have not obeyed the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall go into everlasting fire. The almighty, gracious, merciful God, preserve us from the punishment of the ungodly, and grant us grace and gifts helpful to a holy life, saving death, and joyful resurrection with all the righteous. Amen.”

    A Declaration of Faith by the English People, Amsterdam, Holland [1611]

    Article 26 [page 123].

    “That that the dead shall rise again, and the living being changed in a moment, -having the same bodies in substance though different in qualities.”

    Article 27 [page 123].

    “That after the resurrection all men shall appear before the judgment seat of Christ to be judged according to their works, that the godly shall enjoy life Eternal, the wicked being condemned shall be tormented everlastingly in hell.”

    7. Propositions and Conclusions concerning True Christian Religion, containing a Confession of Faith of certain English people, living at Amsterdam [1612]

    Propositions 91-95, pages 141,142

    “91. That all the bodies of all men that are dead, shall by the power of Christ, be raised up, out of his own proper seed, as corn out of seed rotting in the earth.

    92. That these which live in the last day shall not die, but shall be changed in a moment; in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, for the trump shall blow, and the dead shall be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed, not in substance but in qualities; for the bodies shall rise in honour, in power, in incorruption, and spiritual; being sown in dishonour, in weakness, in corruption, and natural.

    93. But the bodies, being raised up, shall be joined to the souls, whereto formerly they were united; which at that time were preserved in the hands of the Lord.

    94. That it is appointed to all men that they shall once die, and then cometh the judgment, and that the change of them that live on the earth at the last day, shall be as it were a death unto them.

    95. That there shall be a general, and universal day of judgment, when every one shall receive according to the things that are done in the flesh, whether they be good or evil.”
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Throughout history Baptist have generally believed that the return of Jesus Christ will be followed immediately by a resurrection of all the dead, both the ‘redeemed’ and the ‘lost’, and a general judgment. This conclusion is based on information presented in Baptist Confessions of Faith by William L. Lumpkin. [Only one Confession, that of the Baptist Bible Union of 1923, presents a view other than a general resurrection and judgment.] Not all of the confessions in the book included statements about the Second Coming. Those that do are identified and the pertinent statements are presented in the following paragraphs.

    Confessions of English Baptists in England

    The following Confessions are from Baptists in England. The earliest and most significant confession of the Baptists in England, the London Confession of 1844 does not mention the resurrection and judgment but does affirm the return and triumph of Jesus Christ.

    The Midland Association Confession [1655]

    Article 16 [page 200].

    “That at the time appointed of the Lord, the dead bodies of all men, just and unjust shall rise out of their graves, that all may receive according to what they have done in their bodies, be it good or evil.”

    The Somerset Confession [1656]

    Article XL [page 214].

    “That there is a day appointed, when the Lord shall raise the unjust as well as the righteous, and judge them all in righteousness, but every man in his own order, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, whose punishment will be everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.”

    The Standard Confession [1660]

    Article XX [page 231].

    “That there shall be [through Christ who was dead but is alive again from the dead] a Resurrection of all men from the graves of the earth, both the just and the unjust, that is, the fleshly bodies of men, sown into the graves of the earth, corruptible, dishonourable, weak, natural, [which so considered cannot inherit the Kingdom of God] shall be raised again, incorruptible, in glory, in power, spiritual, and so considered, the bodies of the Saints [united again to their spirits] which here suffer for Christ, shall inherit the Kingdom, reigning together with Christ.”

    Article XXI [page 231].

    “That there shall be after the Resurrection from the graves of the earth, An eternal Judgment, at the appearing of Christ and His Kingdom, at which time of judgment which is unalterable, and irrevocable, every man shall receive according to the things done in his body.”

    The Second London Confession [1677]

    Chapter XXXI. Of the State of Man after Death and of the Resurrection of the Dead [page 293]

    “1. The Bodies of Men after Death return to dust and see corruption; but their souls [which neither die nor sleep] having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them; the Souls of the righteous then being made perfect in holiness, are received into Paradise where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory; waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked, are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day; besides these two places for Souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.

    2. At the last day such of the Saints as are found alive shall not sleep but shall be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the self same bodies, and none other; although with different qualities, which shall be reunited with their Souls again forever.

    3. The bodies of the unjust shall by the power of Christ be raised to dishonour; the bodies of the just by His Spirit unto honour, and be made conformable to His own glorious body.”

    Chapter XXXII. Of the Last Judgment [page 294]

    “1. God hath appointed a Day wherein He will judge the world in Righteousness, by Jesus Christ; to Whom all power and judgment is given of the Father; in which Day not only the Apostate Angels shall be judged; but likewise all persons that have lived upon the Earth, shall appear before the tribunal of Christ; to give an account of their thoughts, Words, and Deeds, and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.

    2. The end of Gods appointing this Day is for the manifestation of the glory of His Mercy, in the Eternal Salvation of the Elect, and of His Justice in the Eternal damnation of the Reprobate who are wicked and disobedient; for then shall the Righteous go into everlasting life, and receive the fullness of Joy, and Glory, with everlasting reward in the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into Eternal torments, and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.

    3. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a Day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin and for greater consolation of the godly, in their adversity; so will he have that day unknown to Men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour, the Lord will come; and may ever be prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, Come quickly, Amen.”


    The Orthodox Creed [1679]

    Article XLIX. Of the State of man after Death and of the Resurrection of the Dead [page 333]

    “The bodies of men after death return to dust and see corruption; but their souls, or spirits, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them; the souls of the righteous then being made perfect in holiness, are received into paradise where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory; waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked, are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. And besides these two places for souls separated from their bodies, the holy scripture mentions none. At the last day such of the saints as are found alive shall not sleep but be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the self same bodies and none other; although with different qualities, which shall be reunited with their souls forever and forever, but the bodies of the unjust shall by the power of Christ, as a severe and just judge, be raised to dishonour; and the bodies of the just and righteous by His Spirit, as He is the head of the catholic Church, unto honour, and be made conformable with His glorious body, and shall enjoy everlasting life; in singing perpetual praises and hallelujahs to God for ever and ever. Amen.”

    Article L. Of the last Judgment [page 334]

    “And lastly, we believe God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world in righteousness, by Jesus Christ, to Whom all power, and judgment is given of the Father; in which day, not only the Apostate Angels shall be judged; but likewise all persons that have lived upon the Earth, shall appear before the tribunal of Christ; to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds, and shall receive a just sentence, according to what they have done in their bodies, whether good or evil, when God according to His purpose, will manifest the glory of His mercy, in the salvation of His elect, and of His justice in the eternal damnation of the wicked and disobedient; for then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive the fullness of joy and glory, but the wicked who know not God, nor obey the gospel offered them in Christ, shall be cast into everlasting torments, and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power. Amen.”
     
  3. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Confessions of Baptists in America

    Throughout history Baptist have generally believed that the return of Jesus Christ will be followed immediately by a resurrection of all the dead, both the ‘redeemed’ and the ‘lost’, and a general judgment. This conclusion is based on information presented in Baptist Confessions of Faith by William L. Lumpkin. [Only one Confession, that of the Baptist Bible Union of 1923, presents a view other than a general resurrection and judgment.] Not all of the confessions in the book included statements about the Second Coming. Those that do are identified and the pertinent statements are presented in the following paragraphs.


    Confessions of Baptists in America

    The following Confessions [12-17] are by American Baptists.

    The Philadelphia Confession of Faith [1742]

    The Philadelphia Confession of Faith was not printed in the referenced book but is apparently the same as the Second London Confession with the addition of two articles addressing singing in the church and the laying on of hands.

    The Kehukee [North Carolina] Association [1777]

    Article 14 [page 356].

    “We believe in the resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust, and a general judgment.”

    The Sandy Creek Association [1777]

    Article V [page 358].

    “We believe that there will be a resurrection from the dead and a general or universal judgment, and that the happiness of the righteous and punishment of the wicked will be eternal.”

    The New Hampshire Confession [1833]

    Article XVIII. Of the World to Come [page 367]

    “We believe that the end of this world is approaching: that at the last day, Christ will descend from heaven, and raise the dead from the grave to final retribution; that a solemn separation will then take place; that the wicked will be adjudged to endless punishment and the righteous to endless joy; and that this judgment will fix forever the final state of men in heaven or hell, on principles of righteousness.”

    Articles of Faith-Baptist Bible Union [1923]

    Article XVIII. Of the Resurrection, Return of Christ and Related Events[page 389]

    “We believe in and accept the sacred Scriptures upon these subjects at their full and face value.
    a. The Bodily Resurrection
    b. The Ascension
    c. The High Priesthood
    d. The Second Coming
    e. The Resurrection of the Righteous Dead
    f. The Change of the Living in Christ
    g. On the Throne of David
    h. His Reign on Earth”

    Southern Baptist Convention [1925 and 1963]

    Article X. Last Things [page 397]

    “God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will dwell forever in heaven with the Lord.”
     
  4. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Oops. You must have inadvertantly failed to include (once again) the very next paragraph in the Standard Confession of 1660, Article XXII:
    ...we shall raign (with him) on the Earth, Rev. 5. 10. the Kingdomes of this World, (which men so mightily strive after here to enjoy) shall become the Kingdomes of our Lord, and his Christ, Rev. 11. 15. for all is yours, ( 0 ye that overcome this world) for ye are Christ's, and Christ is Gods, 1 Cor. 3. 22, 23. For unto the Saints shall be given the Kingdome, and the greatness of the Kingdome, under (mark that) the whole Heaven, Dan. 7. 27. Though (alas) now many men be scarce content that the Saints should have so much as being among them; but when Christ shall appear, then shall be their day, then shall be given unto them power over the Nations, to rule them with a Rod of Iron, Rev. 2. 26, 27.

    Love the old Baptist doctine:thumbs:
     
  5. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Hi OLdregular;
    I don't believe that is correct. I've been to just about every kind of Baptist church there is and very few would hold that view at all. The Bible certainly disagrees with it. There are two resurrections Rev. 20:5
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    My pastor went to SWBT (SouthWest Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Tx) in the middle 1960s. He said the majority there were a-mills. IMHO A-mills throw away Revelation 20 cause they don't have enough imagination to see the 'Day of the Lord' in 2 Peter 2:10 as being 1,000 years long as implied in THE SAME CHAPTER at 2 Peter 2:8. Even the first three centuries of the Church really didn't think that Revelation was all that cool. Revelation was written after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 0070.

    So the Baptists agreeing with the 7th Day Adventists was a mark of the Baptists 1640-1970. But then a Baptist studying a Bible had a better idea :jesus:
     
    #246 Ed Edwards, Jan 15, 2009
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  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Yep, ain't that fun ;) pick out the part you agree with, eat the good chunks of broccoli , etc.
     
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Notice that SArticle XXII states nothing about any so-called millennial reign. In fact the passage quoted, Revelation 11:15 states:

    15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
    19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


    This is obviously a picture of the final judgment. Note in verse 15 that Jesus Christ shall reign for ever and ever not for a thousand years. Revelation 20 tells us that there will be a New Heavens and New Earth. Speaking of the New Heavens and New Earth Revelation 21:23-27 states:

    23. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
    24. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
    25. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
    26. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
    27. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.


    Nothing in Article XXII indicates anything other than a general resurrection and judgment and nothing in that article indicates anything such as a millennial kingdom with mortals in the presence of the Glory of God.

    I "Love the old Baptist doctine" and you might look at all the confessions.:thumbs:
     
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Ed

    You are entitled to be incorrect also. I have argued that historic Baptist doctrine has been that there is a general resurrection and judgment and I have posted excerpts to prove that to be true. By the way your comment on the lack of imagination among Baptist teachers is revealing. We are supposed to interpret Scripture by what it states consistent with all of Scripture, not use our imagination to invent some erroneous doctrine.

    I don't care how many Baptist churches you claim are dispensational today. I concede that. A lot of the Bible Schools got hold of Scofield and, sadly, bought it completely. However, I am amazed at how many people are willing to discount 1800 years of Christian doctrine for the imagination of Darby and Scofield. Are dispensationalists so arrogant that they believe they are the sole channels through which the Holy Spirit teaches Christians? I would rather trust the Baptists of the 19th Century such as Boyce, Manly, Broadus, Dagg, Mell, to name a few than those who have been taught by Darby, Scofield, and their disciples.

    Also nothing that Jerome posted in any way disputes the historic Baptist doctrine of a general resurrection and judgment. He conveniently ignored all the other Confessions I posted.

    One additional point. The Southern Baptist doctrine of the Church destroys the major tenent of dispensational doctrine:

    “The New Testament also speaks of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Again, I don't PROVE my Eschatology by 17th century Baptist (1601-1700) writings but by the New Testament (from the first century, AD 0001-0100). But others are welcome to have second hand confession.
     
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Ed

    Both you and Jerome ignored all the other confessions as well as the Statement of Principles of the first Southern Baptist Seminary which is still in effect at Southern Seminary. You both have nothing to crow about!
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Would you (Beloved Elder & already melded Brother OR) mind checking the old posts via Google and see if we (Ed & Jerome) answered them the other six times you posted them? My virtual age (92) is way higher than my physical age (65) -- Can you spell ONEFOOTINTHEGRAVE? I have not much time :praying:
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    OldRegular: In post #246 I quoted MB who quoted OldRegular, then I debated with MB about his interpertation of what OldRegular mean. I was actually debating on the side of OldRegular. Unfortunately I missed a "[ q" which cause the quotation to be in error. I have since corrected post #246.

    Unfortunately in your OldRegular post # 249 you argue with MB thinking you are arguing with Ed Edwards. Please check post #246 and see what I quoted and fix your post#249. Thank you.
     
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Dispensationalism cannot be proven by proper exegesis of Scripture. As you mature in the faith Ed I hope you are led to the faith once for all delivered unto the Saints [Jude 1:3]
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    No use to change anything since I disagree with you both. However, I do agree that there are two resurrections. The first , that of Jesus Christ, occured some 2000 years ago. The second, the general resurrection as prophesied in John 5:28, 29, is yet to come.
     
  16. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I posted them again because Me4Him indicated he was not familiar with historic Baptist doctrine [post #239] and apparently neither are you or Jerome. So study them again and don't deceive yourself that you are the sole vessel through which the Holy Spirit gives understanding of Scripture. These old Saints knew more about Scripture than you, Jerome, or I ten times over.
     
  17. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    London Confession of 1844, Article 40:
    "...so certainly shall the bodies of the Saints be raised by the power of Christ, in the day of the resurrection, to reigne with Christ."
     
  18. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    That would be at the very least Pre-mil.

    Amil/post-mil wasn't delievered as a church held view till about 450'ish bc. when the Church became the power hungry and corrupt Catholic Church that we know and love today.
     
    #258 Allan, Jan 15, 2009
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  19. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I read on the BB once during this kind of debate that the Reformed Christians got the Amil view from the Catholics. They just sort of carried it over with them since that was not the focus of difference. I can't recall who said this, of course. I thought it was interesting.
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen, Brother Allan -- Preach it! :thumbs:

    A-mill/post-mill are so RCC (Roman Church).

    Protestants (3G = 3rd generation - do not confuse with Reformed) should be pre-mill like the Bible writers under God's leadership were.
     
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