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Salvation in this lifetime only?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by menageriekeeper, Apr 15, 2010.

  1. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    I don't doubt that judgement is coming. Its the when that I am questioning. Is it immediately upon death? Is it sometime in the future?

    Why are death and hell emptied if those who are there are already in "torments"? What is this "second death" that we are to fear? (Rev 20:14) What judgement can await those who have already been judged? And if Christ has the keys to death and hell, why does He allow anyone in? (okay, that is sort of off topic, but if you have answer I'd like to hear it)
     
  2. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I am saying that Hebrews 9:12 is correct in the way you do not think. Yes for himself and for us. Hebrews 5:9 says the same thing. If you understand this the rest of my post makes sense. Jesus who was the Word made flesh was the first flesh and blood being to experience this. That was the purpose for the incarnation to pay our penalty for sin and give us life.

    Of course if you believe we have an immortal soul and can't really die but live somewhere either good or bad then you can't believe the Word became flesh and died either.

    God said in dying thou shalt surly die.

    And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die
     
  3. olegig

    olegig New Member

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    IMO many of your questions are answered with a pre-mil, dispensational view of scripture; but alas, that seems to be a no-no of discussion topic here.
     
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    2 Corinthians 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
    --Tomorrow may be too late.

    2 Corinthians 5:10-11 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
    11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
     
  5. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    1. Inferred from Scriptures as a result of incorrect division of the Scripture and of the words "salvation" and "saved";
    2. We also get the idea from spoon fed doctrines preached from pulpits by preachers who were spoon fed by preachers who were spoon fed in seminaries, with myself as guilty of this as everyone else;

    You don't save yourselves from a damned eternity, Christ is the One who does that. Correction: did that.
    Bawl and roll on the floor all you want, if your name is not in the Lamb's Book of Life, and had it written there from the foundation of the world, you ain't redeemed, and you can come crying down the altar every Sunday, and it still don't mean nuthin'.

    You do save yourselves from this and other untoward generation.
     
  6. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    So you're saying that Christ's suffering and death on the cross accomplished nothing for those whom He died for except a hope that they will be like Him soon enough, and He accomplished nothing for His Father, except to be the first Person with a human body in heaven ?

    Did I get you correctly ?
    Please elucidate and educate this ape who just recently learned he is a human being, no thanks to Darwin.
     
  7. olegig

    olegig New Member

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    I would agree with the above; so therefore perhaps it is time we stopped the chain of human doctrine and just take the book as it is written.

    When those who have "come crying down the altar every Sunday" accepting Jesus as their Lord and Saviour are standing in judgement and they ask: "Why not me also Lord?"
    What do you suppose God will tell them?
     
  8. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Proff

    We coming to Christ and us staying in Him proves we are His.

    1 John 2:19
    They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

    James 2:14
    [ Faith and Deeds ] What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

    1 Timothy 4:16
    Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
     
  9. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Depart from me, ye doers of iniquity, I never knew you.

    The Bible also tells us in two places in Revelation that the clincher for them being cast finally into the lake of fire, with the devil and his angels, is their names not being found written in the Lamb's Book of life, and that after they were judged according to their works.

    For there was no one who took their works unto himself to be judged in their behalf.
     
  10. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Nah, you had it right the first time. But you can go before the judgment seat having that predestined specially selected attitude while having preached that hoopla monkey doctrine denying others any hope if you like. Good luck with answering to dat one.
     
  11. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Luv ya too, brother.

    ps...I'm morphing into an angel soon.
     
  12. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    You and Bejamin will want to watch out for your halos. You'd hate to have them rust off. :D

    This is what I'm concerned about which is why I asked how we came by the idea.

    Now this is better evidence. However the scripture seems to refer back to something said by Christ at an earlier time. Can you point the way back to that statement?

    I believe this just as far as a Freewiller can. Right up to the point where a sincere person asks for salvation. In my mind one who comes bawling Sunday after Sunday either isn't truely asking for salvation or hasn't properly been discipled. But let us not devolve this discussion into a C/A debate. Please.
     
  13. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    No I am saying by the Word being made flesh and actually dying on the cross he accomplished what it was supposed to paid our death sentence. And by the Father raising him to eternal life he became the author of eternal salvation for us (or those he died for).
     
  14. olegig

    olegig New Member

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    When those who have "come crying down the altar every Sunday" accepting Jesus as their Lord and Saviour are standing in judgement and they ask: "Why not me also Lord?"
    What do you suppose God will tell them?


    This is perhaps one of the saddest things I have ever heard.
    Why keep them coming back week after week?
    Is there joy in being able to reject them?
    Why not send them down the street to a Church that has a doctrine of love and salvation that will acknowledge their belief?
     
  15. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    I don't know, olegig.
    you asked.
    I looked at Scripture.
    There is the answer.
    Take it up with Christ, or find a Bible that suits you.
     
  16. olegig

    olegig New Member

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    Actually the Bible I have suits me just fine, its as you stated below the interpretation of some men where in I find the sadness.

     
  17. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    okay, my friend.
    hope you had a good sunday.
     
  18. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Hmm, for this to be such a widely held belief, I'm not getting nearly as much scriptural evidence as I expected. I'm a little surprised by that.
     
  19. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    There is much scripture for it, also many illistations and much allusion to it in scripture.

    Such passages as already are given (like rbell has given) as irrefutable, especially when one holds to context. It is appointed unto man, once to die and them the judgment. IOW - all men will die and all men will be judged. And thus the only way to not be condemned in judgement is to receive the only means provided to escape eternal punishment/damnation - also explained as perishing which is contrasted negitively with life. one such example is Jude 7 and 12-13.

    There are various aspects to this eternal shared by all therein, such as darkness, fire, worms that do not die, sorrow, without hope, ect..

    We see this judgment in many places of scripture such as John 3:16-17 - speaking of why Jesus came to earth. We read in Rom 3:25 that what Christ did is NOT automatically applied to ANY person unless they receive it by faith and that, in Him alone.

    Rev 20:10-15 (and others) speak of the Great white throne Judgment in which there is no second chance to repent (of which the passage speaking once to die - does as well) but the judgment. And all THESE people are judged according to their works, and the 'type' of judgment upon their works is determined by whether or not they are found written in the book of life.

    Scripture also tells us that Judgment is without mercy. We see this in many passages and illistrations (ie. Lazarus and rich man, marriage feast, good and evil servants..) According to scripture there is a resurrection to life )the coming of Christ Jesus) and a resurrection to damnation (Rev 20). Also Mat 18:8 speaks to the fact of being condemned of living - when we die. Mat 25:36 states the same thing - that when we die we will either go to life or death - and in ALL places find our salvation is dependant entirely upon our faith in Him and His finished work (again Rom 3:25).

    There are passages in scripture which speak to the fact that men, while still alive, are given over to their sins because God knows they have come to a point where they will not believe (Rom 1:18-32; 2 Thes 2:10-12; Prov 1:22-33; and many others)

    There is much much more, so to me I am not only baffled but mystified why you make the assumption there isn't much scripture on it since a great deal of the scriptures speak both to and of it. With the amount there is I am makeing the assumption you have really looked this up to study it out though. - this is just an assumption

    If the above is not true then what is the point of the gospel. Scripture states emphatically - believe and be saved NOT you are saved therefore you will believe. Otherwise Jesus Himself is a liar (John 5:24) and thus is not the Messiah promised, our salvation fortold, nor our God made flesh and dwelling amoung us.

    If you need more or would more examples or explaination, just ask.
     
    #39 Allan, Apr 19, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 19, 2010
  20. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    I said this in the OP. You are right, I haven't studied this as well as a few other things that I will post about as time moves on, for myself. I find as I get older, I am less and less accepting of things I haven't studied for myself. There are times when I can't even find a starting point and then when I do, I see things in a different light that I am told too.

    Such as the scripture that rbell posted. And with that, I find that I am more and more likely to question a point, if it doesn't have clear collaboration of other passages.

    This last post of yours gives me a much better starting point. Thank you. I'll be back when I have had a chance to go through it all.
     
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